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[Persus13]

Persus13

I'd love if I could see input from Toaster and Tiruin and Cmega3.

...You're voting Toaster, why, instead of the other two on this inferably suspicion-list?

That isn't my suspicion list, that's the who-I-want-to-post list.

Toaster came out of D1 looking scummy to me. Kleril's non-involvement in the game except for talking about how he didn't want to get lynched struck me as odd while I was looking back over the thread. it seemed very different from when I played with him in Beginner's Mafia. Then when he buddied with Cmega3 over how NQT was asking questions personally, he gave a strange justification for Cmega's vote of NQT. It seemed entirely feasible that the two were scumbuddies. Then when Toaster placed in he voted Nerjin right in the middle of the bandwagon, and if I remember correctly he placed the third vote on Nerjin. It seemed a perfectly timed jump for scum to do. He did it with enough time before day end to get Nerjin lynched.

If you are subtling asking for my suspicion list, here it is.
The others I'm suspicious of are Cmega and Caz. Cmega because D1 he seemed to be voting people strangely and because of him buddying me when several people were suspicious of me. Caz hasn't been making much sense today so he seems scummy. He also seems to be overconfident and making two many assumptions, almost like he knows things about other people for certain.

Max has fallen of my suspicion list, mainly because he let off his bizarre and constant tunneling of NQT.

[Toaster]

Work was long today and I'm too tired to use my brain much.  I'll get back to this.

[notquitethere]

Caz

This line of thought only makes sense if Jim was targeting confirmed town. Which he didn't.

Most players are town and if you have the option of confirming alignment before using you could eliminate the chance of mistakenly killing townies, a possibility that seems very likely.

I would probably kill someone who I thought to be scum, to be honest. Having a kill is like having a lynch, except you don't need to convince everyone else with it.

But having to convince other people shows the strength of your case. It's very easy for a single person to be mistaken.

Waste of time. We should be asking ourselves what kind of noob scumteam there is that would kill Persus13 first, which arguably would help scum. You kill the good players first, not the bad. Since no one likes the idea of a monster hunter, let's roll with that. Then there's also the possibility that Persus13 is making it all up to stop us considering a cult scumteam.

Bit WIFOM-ish but you might have a point here. Hmm.

Jim

You heard it here, folks! Only town players die from vigkills!

Scum dying from vigkills is such an alien possibility that it's not even worth considering when asking questions about how to utilize vigkills to their full advantage!

Sarcasm does you a disservice. Obviously scum can be killed with a vigilante kill. You said it was valuable even if you did kill town players:

Even if they happen to be town, this is still valuable.

Hell, I admit I'm not always right about everything. Let's open these questions up to the floor.

How is this an important issue to ask everybody about?

This is a distraction from finding scum.

I want to know whether you're reasoning is pro-scum and I'm willing to admit that my intuitions might be wrong. I talk to everyone in the game anyway. Investigating your way of thinking is scum-hunting. I'm not stopping anyone following up their own inquiries.

I have a question. What the fuck are you even voting me over?

You gave an argument that seemed to me to be in favour of acting in a way likely to endanger town's chances of winning. Only you and Caz seem to think this way so far. You guys might just be loose cannons but your continued attitude seems very hostile which raises my suspicions somewhat.

I want to give the game the game a proper look over before I push a Day 2 case in earnest, so unvote for now, but I might be back.

Toony

@NQT:
I agree with Imp here.  Your excuse for resurrecting Nerjin isn't very convincing unless you were taking any chance you could get.  Which sounds overeager and possibly scummy.  You're also attacking a player with what I can only assume a case that proves they're town?

Not sure how wanting to resurrect a confirmed town player is scummy. I was concerned about being night killed before I got the chance to use my power. I find Jim suspicious because he advocates a way of playing a role that seems to me (and at least three other players) to be anti-town. Even if I do think he's a monster hunter (Persus might be lying and there might not even be a monster hunter in the game) he might be third-party. There was a third-party ghoul with a killing power in a previous game, right? So why not a third-party hunter? Anyway, this is all very speculative and I'd like to push a much stronger case once I've given the game a proper reassessment..

Imp

I don't remember seeing any of the several devils from past games have a kill to use, they have a kill (and other things) to offer others.  There's a deal for a soul, and some things (guardian angel) cannot be dealt with, autofail reasons.

I reread the devil description and you're right, I was mistaken about them having a kill.

Excuse me, but I was very involved during his 'at death's door/end of D1' questioning.  I did not see anything that made me think he was starting to get his anything together, and I was rather ardent about trying to evoke that from him.

I was thinking of the posts immediately before you quoted, like this. He obviously went and reread parts of the thread and seemed to putting in some effort.

Could you answer my questions now you've thought about things some?

Tiruin, Toaster, Nerjin, Cmega
Still waiting on this:

Nerjin, Tiruin, Persus13, Cmega3, Imp, ToonyMan, Caz, Max White, Toaster

If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?

Should a priest use their resurrect power?

Stands at:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yes Inspect before Kill:
NQT
Persus
Toony
Max

No Inspect before Kill:
Jim
Caz

Hasn't yet to commit to whether Inspect before Kill:
Imp
Toaster
Nerjin
Tiruin
Cmega

Yes Nerjin:
Persus
NQT

No Nerjin:
Jim
Apparently Nerjin
Toony
Jim
Max

Unclear Nerjin:
Caz

Has yet to commit about Nerjin:
Cmega
Tiruin
Imp

I'm at work now so only have time to do these responses but I intend to do some proper analysis, hopefully tonight, before pressing my next round of cases.

[notquitethere]

Max

Oh, was he? If you think he was starting to straighten up and fly right then why were you voting for him yesterday? How did he go from lynch worthy to a town asset, even as third party?

Seems to me like you are trying to set him up, knowing that if there is an inspect in town it is heading straight for him.

Max this is baseless speculation. Nerjin was so borderline. I didn't know whether he was just appearing to give an effort just because I gave an ultimatum and I knew I could resurrect him if I was wrong. I probably would have unvoted him if his scum-pick breakdown had made much sense.

Nerjin

I will be honest. I was kinda upset that I was revived. I'm having much more fun in the other thread because I haven't let it get away from me. I let this one do that, and when killed I was thinking "Awesome! Now I can just enjoy the fire-works and not have to pay too much attention." But now I do...

Oh Nerjin, I hope you are still town.

[ToonyMan]

PFP

@Tiruin:

..And I believe you're deriving your case from Caz because he was the first who mentioned my switchiness. Is that true, Toony? Or are you just being lazy?

It was Toaster actually, here.  Second quote below your name.

You are calling Caz defensive, and while his actions at day start were odd, you weren't even here...and now...you don't think you're acting defensive?

Nerjin

I will be honest. I was kinda upset that I was revived. I'm having much more fun in the other thread because I haven't let it get away from me. I let this one do that, and when killed I was thinking "Awesome! Now I can just enjoy the fire-works and not have to pay too much attention." But now I do...

Oh Nerjin, I hope you are still town.

You can never tell!  It's scary!

Also Cmega, you lied about giving a post yesterday!

[Toaster]

I'm blasting through this, so Extend.


Persus:

Hey Toaster, does that fact that you voted Nerjin in the middle of the bandwagon look scummy to you? It seems perfect for a scum picking an easy lynch to me.

I posted my reasons for my vote, and I stand by them.  It's only bandwagony if the reasoning is absent or entirely derivative.

Though now Persus has claimed to have been attacked in the night, it might not be true after all. What kind of scum uses swords? Cult would use vampire fangs or daggers, demons would leave a bloody lump of meat, and werewolves usually rip their prey to shreds as well.

I don't know. I believe in S2 the cult attacked and subdued their victims before dragging them off and killing them with magicy daggers. They didn't use vampire fangs.

Blunt weapons, mostly.


NQT:

Devils are the ones who offer deals. Demons are the nasty ones you're thinking of.

Devils can also get a one-shot kill.

Give, not get.

If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?

Should a priest use their resurrect power?

The specific hunters only investigate for a specific species.  If a vampire hunter investigates a werewolf, they'll get a clean result.   As such, unless the hunter is sure what they are looking for (IE a vampire hunter has seen a vampire flip) then they should shoot first and look at the corpse in the morning.  You mentioned Toony- he was a vampire hunter in a werewolf game.

Resses are risky.  It'd be best used on a player with a strong role (double benefits if it's verifiable) that may have some evidence for the town if brought back.


Caz:

Waste of time. We should be asking ourselves what kind of noob scumteam there is that would kill Persus13 first, which arguably would help scum. You kill the good players first, not the bad. Since no one likes the idea of a monster hunter, let's roll with that. Then there's also the possibility that Persus13 is making it all up to stop us considering a cult scumteam.

Why are you trying to eliminate a possibility out of hand?  You're awfully eager to discourage discussion on that topic.




Out of time to finish this one.

[Imp]

Could you answer my questions now you've thought about things some?

Yes.  I'm not done thinking about things by any means but I've finished thinking about your questions.  I'll be posting more later tonight, time pressured and PFP now.

If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?

Sometimes, situational based.  If you MUST have a yes or no leaning answer (which is not my true answer) I would have to say NO BUT SOMETIMES YES.  I have read that it is generally considered to be better to kill if you can.  We are specifically speaking about a Town-aligned player with investigate or kill action, yes?  I would like that player to use that power as a second lynch, to take out one of (or the) the most Scummiest 'nearly were lynched' people.  I currently believe those players are likely to remain Scummy, likely to require more attention the next day, and are likely to be future lynch choices even if they're not Scum.

Should a priest use their resurrect power?

Sometimes, situational based.  If you MUST have a yes or no leaning answer (which is not my true answer) I would have to say NO BUT SOMETIMES YES.  I would definately consider the value that player has to offer the priest's own wincon.  I see it as a way of recycling an old player back into the game with an unmeasurable chance of having a new role (stated to be 50% if the priest is Town - unknown % if priest is not Town).  One previous game had a Scum priest - That player's resurrection action resulted in a conversion fromTown to Scum.  I do not support resurrecting a player casually (casual resurrection appears to be anti-Town) or because of 'being sorry' about their mislynch, or because 'they seem to be trying harder now and they were a mislynch'.  I think those are extremely poor reasons (for Town) to resurrect someone, given the risks it has and the cover it can provide to other malign interests which could exist.

I lack time to tell if we've gotten our extend yet or not, or if we're now reaching for our second extend.  If we already have the first (which I already voted for), I'll add my extend to the second.

[Caz]

Extend, really don't have the time to look through this today.

[Tiruin]

PFP

@Tiruin:

..And I believe you're deriving your case from Caz because he was the first who mentioned my switchiness. Is that true, Toony? Or are you just being lazy?

It was Toaster actually, here.  Second quote below your name.

You are calling Caz defensive, and while his actions at day start were odd, you weren't even here...and now...you don't think you're acting defensive?

...I'm calling Caz a lot more context than a superficial case of defensive. Me? Sure, I guess defensive is a term for my action. Being grumpy as well as directly attacking the guy is also a good idea. Assertive counts as a synonym. Grumpy is a blunt term.

And..what Toaster said there.
...
I really can't get how you linked that to

[...]switching your vote so much

I did answer Toaster.

On that note, by the fact that you aren't--or not currently--addressing my other points mean that either you are evading the case, or all I say is true about you. Am I correct to infer such?

Next, note ahead that you did notice my response to Toaster, here and do connect it with the case of 'switching votes' as an...instance, perhaps?

I'm practically lost with what or how you're looking into me there.

[Tiruin]

Now to things I missed!

NQT

Tiruin, Toaster, Nerjin, Cmega
Still waiting on this:

Nerjin, Tiruin, Persus13, Cmega3, Imp, ToonyMan, Caz, Max White, Toaster

If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?

Should a priest use their resurrect power?

...Err, I have no idea what a Monster Hunter does other than guess he can kill, because hunters do that. Or..track, perhaps?
Anyway. If they can do such both in the same night - as in investigate and kill - sure. But I suspect you mean its an conjunction question you're saying (I mean, investigate someone then kill them? Dear me, a waste of an investigate unless there are no roleflips...which somehow makes sense here.)
...
So yeah. I do think the above case follows. Or if they can only use one on a separate target, then I'd prefer investigation first, unless they're REALLY REALLY sure the target is scum, then they can unleash their kill while investigating the other dude.

On your last question...eh? That's like asking 'should a white mage heal the wounded'? In truth, that makes me think. Given that you claimed a priest, are you sure of your piety? As in, do you EXACTLY know how pious you are, and how the God(s) favor you? Any other interfering stuff with your holiness and all?

Otherwise, if only a generality is known, then yeah, I still think a priest should use his resurrect, and then use his scumhunting and prior notes on said person to check (as well as the night actions and process of elimination and all).

Either way, unless the priest suspects stuff happened to him or that he's...lacking? I think he should use his resurrect. Why're you asking me this? I ain't a priest, father NQT.

Proceeding query: Based on Max' response of Priests...Huh. It makes it seem more like the priest role is a sentient mystery box. Sometimes bad, sometimes good. All depending on the context.

Why did you resurrect Nerjin? If already answered, why did you resurrect Nerjin now instead of later then?
Persus13

Ok wow.

Hi guys, so before we get into discussion of a vampire cult, I'd like to mention something.

I am a Knight, and last night a masked guy with a sword attacked me. Unless some sort of monster hunter or SK attacked me (which didn't fit the flavor and I have a higher opinion of you guys if you're a town-aligned monster hunter) I think we're dealing with a repeat of the cult scumteam from S2 (which was a normal mafia scumteam).

...Masked guy with sword = cult scumteam?
From where are you getting that notion (other than looking back). I mean, out of context, that thing looks eerily specific when you judge 'guy with sword'. Couldn't that be flavor for any kind of person (I'm thinking scum knight perhaps?)
...But based on

Though now Persus has claimed to have been attacked in the night, it might not be true after all. What kind of scum uses swords? Cult would use vampire fangs or daggers, demons would leave a bloody lump of meat, and werewolves usually rip their prey to shreds as well.

I think I'm missing a crucial note here. Everyone: NKs are tied with the flavor of the role who did it, yes? Not the general faction flavor? Swords seem...common in these parts, and connecting my thoughts with Toaster's Roguelike Mafia--I used any kind of weapon (bow/sword) when i was a scum Ranger. What I'm saying is, I bet anyone could use any kind of weapon at hand given the context there, but I'm not denouncing this idea that there are specific subsets which prefer to use x kind of weapon over a general y commonly seen around.

My question still stands to you Persus, because

It was clearly a man, and there wasn't anything seemingly supernatural or demonic about him. That's why I was leaning toward cultists (as in S2) or a monster hunter.

this proceeding thought on the matter specifies.


...Ok, catching up on the confluzzle the happened near D1 end so I'm poking at points from recent time until I get my full bearings.

..And I'm really confused why we're all basing our knowledge on past games. As in, basing it until the point where it becomes metaknowledge against our fellow Meph GM here.

 Cmega3: Where are you. What have you been doing, and what are your concise thoughts on everyone at the moment?

[Persus13]

Sorry, can you post that where it's more clear where you're talking to me?

[Tiruin]

Thrice damnit.

Now to things I missed!

NQT

Tiruin, Toaster, Nerjin, Cmega
Still waiting on this:

Nerjin, Tiruin, Persus13, Cmega3, Imp, ToonyMan, Caz, Max White, Toaster

If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?

Should a priest use their resurrect power?

...Err, I have no idea what a Monster Hunter does other than guess he can kill, because hunters do that. Or..track, perhaps?
Anyway. If they can do such both in the same night - as in investigate and kill - sure. But I suspect you mean its an conjunction question you're saying (I mean, investigate someone then kill them? Dear me, a waste of an investigate unless there are no roleflips...which somehow makes sense here.)
...
So yeah. I do think the above case follows. Or if they can only use one on a separate target, then I'd prefer investigation first, unless they're REALLY REALLY sure the target is scum, then they can unleash their kill while investigating the other dude.

On your last question...eh? That's like asking 'should a white mage heal the wounded'? In truth, that makes me think. Given that you claimed a priest, are you sure of your piety? As in, do you EXACTLY know how pious you are, and how the God(s) favor you? Any other interfering stuff with your holiness and all?

Otherwise, if only a generality is known, then yeah, I still think a priest should use his resurrect, and then use his scumhunting and prior notes on said person to check (as well as the night actions and process of elimination and all).

Either way, unless the priest suspects stuff happened to him or that he's...lacking? I think he should use his resurrect. Why're you asking me this? I ain't a priest, father NQT.

Proceeding query: Based on Max' response of Priests...Huh. It makes it seem more like the priest role is a sentient mystery box. Sometimes bad, sometimes good. All depending on the context.

Why did you resurrect Nerjin? If already answered, why did you resurrect Nerjin now instead of later then?
Persus13

Ok wow.

Hi guys, so before we get into discussion of a vampire cult, I'd like to mention something.

I am a Knight, and last night a masked guy with a sword attacked me. Unless some sort of monster hunter or SK attacked me (which didn't fit the flavor and I have a higher opinion of you guys if you're a town-aligned monster hunter) I think we're dealing with a repeat of the cult scumteam from S2 (which was a normal mafia scumteam).

...Masked guy with sword = cult scumteam?
From where are you getting that notion (other than looking back). I mean, out of context, that thing looks eerily specific when you judge 'guy with sword'. Couldn't that be flavor for any kind of person (I'm thinking scum knight perhaps?)
...But based on

Though now Persus has claimed to have been attacked in the night, it might not be true after all. What kind of scum uses swords? Cult would use vampire fangs or daggers, demons would leave a bloody lump of meat, and werewolves usually rip their prey to shreds as well.

I think I'm missing a crucial note here. Everyone: NKs are tied with the flavor of the role who did it, yes? Not the general faction flavor? Swords seem...common in these parts, and connecting my thoughts with Toaster's Roguelike Mafia--I used any kind of weapon (bow/sword) when i was a scum Ranger. What I'm saying is, I bet anyone could use any kind of weapon at hand given the context there, but I'm not denouncing this idea that there are specific subsets which prefer to use x kind of weapon over a general y commonly seen around.

My question still stands to you Persus, because

It was clearly a man, and there wasn't anything seemingly supernatural or demonic about him. That's why I was leaning toward cultists (as in S2) or a monster hunter.

this proceeding thought on the matter specifies.


...Ok, catching up on the confluzzle the happened near D1 end so I'm poking at points from recent time until I get my full bearings.

..And I'm really confused why we're all basing our knowledge on past games. As in, basing it until the point where it becomes metaknowledge against our fellow Meph GM here.

 Cmega3: Where are you. What have you been doing, and what are your concise thoughts on everyone at the moment?

[Jim Groovester]

Extend because it seems like it's been a slow day for everyone else.

There are instances where resurrecting somebody could prove valuable. Resurrecting Nerjin, who did not have a powerful role or any valuable information to bring back to the town, was not such an instance.

Out of curiosity, what role would you consider powerful. Doesn't Dreamwalker allow you to view the PMs of other players? I'd consider that a powerful role.

Since there's the chance any member of the town can come back as something entirely different, I would argue it's more pertinent how much information he could have gotten when he died, over what his role is. I.E., if some inspection role died late in the game before revealing his results, it might be worth it to bring him back, just to get those results.

Some roles might be worth it to bring back on their own, like vigilantes. They have to be especially powerful though.

Dreamwalker isn't a powerful role because the targeting is random, and you know what happened but not who did it. Since it's luck-based whether you get anything good, it's not that great of a role and without any results at all I'd say it wasn't worth it to bring Nerjin back.

Sarcasm does you a disservice. Obviously scum can be killed with a vigilante kill. You said it was valuable even if you did kill town players:

Even if they happen to be town, this is still valuable.

But I've already explained:

Vigilantes eliminates suspects. Even if they happen to be town, this is still valuable.

It's similar reasoning to the lynch; it removes a player from the game, but arguably more importantly, it also serves to help the town investigate the remaining players.

If you don't like my reasoning, I can't do anything about that. But don't pretend I haven't given an explanation.

Here, I'll even elaborate a bit. Frequently the majority of the town's suspicions reside in a few people. Elimination of these people, by whatever means, forces the town to move on to other targets. This is the most important function of the lynch, and vigkills can serve a similar purpose.

How is this an important issue to ask everybody about?

This is a distraction from finding scum.

I want to know whether you're reasoning is pro-scum and I'm willing to admit that my intuitions might be wrong. I talk to everyone in the game anyway. Investigating your way of thinking is scum-hunting. I'm not stopping anyone following up their own inquiries.

But the issue you're investigating is how vigilantes should operate.

This is not an opinion I change between games. In fact, I have stated this same argument in other games. You can and will learn literally nothing about my alignment by asking me this question or asking everybody else what their opinion of it is.

You gave an argument that seemed to me to be in favour of acting in a way likely to endanger town's chances of winning. Only you and Caz seem to think this way so far. You guys might just be loose cannons but your continued attitude seems very hostile which raises my suspicions somewhat.

It's not hostile, it's aggressive, which is always lauded as a town quality.

I want to give the game the game a proper look over before I push a Day 2 case in earnest, so unvote for now, but I might be back.

What do you have to go back to?

On one hand, you're arguing that I could be a third party Monster Hunter. The pattern in Supernatural games is to have third parties and the scum team be supernatural entities, and this has been extremely consistent throughout all Supernatural games. Now go look at what Persus13 said; he said there was nothing demonic or supernatural about the guy that attacked him. Whoever attacked him was town.

On the other hand, you're also voting me because I think vigilantes should be extremely aggressive in their choice of targets. This is not an opinion I change based on my alignment. It has no bearing on whether I am town or scum.

You have no case and you had no reason for voting me. There will be no coming back to your case at all since you do not have one.

I find Jim suspicious because he advocates a way of playing a role that seems to me (and at least three other players) to be anti-town. Even if I do think he's a monster hunter (Persus might be lying and there might not even be a monster hunter in the game) he might be third-party. There was a third-party ghoul with a killing power in a previous game, right? So why not a third-party hunter? Anyway, this is all very speculative and I'd like to push a much stronger case once I've given the game a proper reassessment.

You know what's not on this list?

Your argument for me being scum. If you think there's a vampire scumteam then you cannot be fucking around voting anti-town people and third parties, no matter how dangerous and loose-cannony you think they are.

Unvote, notquitethere made an enormous misstep and I don't feel like letting him get away with it.

Everyone: NKs are tied with the flavor of the role who did it, yes? Not the general faction flavor?

No, it's faction flavor. There may be some variance based on role in the attacker's role PM, but it won't be obvious what that is from the victim's PM.

..And I'm really confused why we're all basing our knowledge on past games. As in, basing it until the point where it becomes metaknowledge against our fellow Meph GM here.

Because even though the setups are closed they are pretty regular. A lot of clues can be gathered this way, by comparing it to previous games.

[Tiruin]

PFP

Everyone: NKs are tied with the flavor of the role who did it, yes? Not the general faction flavor?

No, it's faction flavor. There may be some variance based on role in the attacker's role PM, but it won't be obvious what that is from the victim's PM.

..And I'm really confused why we're all basing our knowledge on past games. As in, basing it until the point where it becomes metaknowledge against our fellow Meph GM here.

Because even though the setups are closed they are pretty regular. A lot of clues can be gathered this way, by comparing it to previous games.

So in the scenario where one attacks with a sword and a mask, we can safely assume it was not a werebear, nor a supernatural entity. Probably anyone from the list in the OP, and..a cult, right?

Back to Persus: Why assume a cult in the first place? Same for Caz.

[Jim Groovester]

Not everything in the role list can just grab a sword and head out. Monster Hunters the only role from the list in the OP capable of kills.

A cult is... possible. But I think it's unlikely given the choice of target.