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[Max White]

Nerjin

Are you serious right now? How many players are there? Think about that for a second. Should I pursue the person I think is most scummy OR should I go after EVERYONE at once? I'm going to let you think about that for a while. As for wanting my assessment of the scumminess of all the other players... No. I think I'll keep that information to myself.

And am I to assume that means me? Are you perusing? Are you questioning? Are you countering? Are you engaging in discussion?
I am me, and I'm pretty sure you aren't actually going those things towards me.

It looks more like you have decided "Welp I'm just going to sit a vote here, say it is because I don't believe his case and call it a day!"

To say you are pursuing anybody is a little misleading, don't you think?

Playing dumb is a colloquiallism for pretending not to know something "No officer, I never saw three men in hoodies outside my neighbors window." I was saying Playing Dumb as in: Playing like an idiot. I realized that after the first post, clarified that in the second post [right after that bold you put there], and then reiterated it in the third.

So you think NQT is pretending to not know something as an act of dishonesty, and you don't question him?

Jim

You accused him of being scummy for jumping in to question you about your question to Tiruin. What should NQT have done in response to this?

I pointed out that it was a scummy thing to do, for sure, but I didn't accuse him of being scum at that point.
NQT could have done any number of things, I don't see a finite number of replies he could have given me that would be acceptable. Heck the reply he gave was acceptable, but not to the degree that I wasn't going to question him further. So I questioned him further, and was unhappy with the way he got more defensive and decided to ignore questions in favor of just repeating something he had said earlier, and then contradicted.

Cmega3

I noticed you started debating your idea too strongly and fast for it to be just a simple argument, and fighting too much for it (at least, in my opinion). That is what I call "getting defensive".
...
What do you think? Is this not enough evidence? Or is it weak?
I want to see your side.

This is how I read your statement:
I noticed that you were on the offense and really wanted to push some serious pressure beyond the simple RVS bullshit. This is what I call being defensive.
Really? You think trying hard to push a point that somebody else is scum is being defensive?
As far as my side goes, I think he is scum and as we have already established there is not much to go off in day 1. Solution? Bring down hell and see how they react, and how did he react?
Well he sought salvation by trying to force people into choosing between myself or Nerjin, and taking any attention away from himself.

How do you expect to get stuff done, we all sit about and drink tea? I think he is scum, I'm going to drive that case hard and fast.

[Imp]

On that note: your vote is on Toony. Several other players believe his vote on you is generally weak, but why does that make him more likely scum than any other player?

tl;dr summary, Imp's 'case' on Toony:
Toony does not appear at any point to be working towards a Town wincon, even accounting for his extremely limited playtime time.  He appears to be working to create the illusion of scumhunting without any indication that he is concerned about anything other than protecting himself.  What appears to be scumhunting from him is largely disconnected from other instances of apparent scumhunting (with the exception of keeping his vote upon me for the sole reason he gave when placing it) and he attempts absolutely no follow through until he is strongly attacked.  He does not try to verify anything, challenge anything, or achieve anything other than that goal of self protection and continued survival (thus the illusion of scumhunting) and this shows in every post he has made this game.

Here are my observations.  All bolding is my own, I have removed any previously present bolding to clarify my emphasis.

EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?

The role that let's me win without having to do anything.

1)  This statement shows goals of self centeredness, corner cutting, and laziness.  That's very generous of him to openly tell us to say, especially if it's honest and serious.  It also does match what I see of his philosophy and playstyle this game.  Extremely tuned towards 'not having to do [much of] anything.'  I don't see this as a Town attitude.  I'm surprised he even alluded to having this attitude - but he goes on to display it in multiple ways over time.

@Max White:

Toony
Putting your education before internet games, for shame!
Will you have a chance to really be active any time soon? I have no read on you what so ever, and that annoys me.

Unfortunately, probably not until Friday or this weekend.  Ideally, I won't die by then so it should work out.

2)  Selfish, narrowminded, inconsiderate.  This would be "ideal" for whom?  This will "work out" for whom?  No one but Toony.  And he's talking about his not dying.  He's promising activity - whatever that means to a person who's said the role he most wants is one that "let's [him] win without having to do anything."

@Imp:

I think Imp is too good a player to make that error

What are you basing this belief upon?

If you lack the self-esteem to see yourself as a skilled player I should say by my impressions you seem pretty competent or at least proactive.

3)  Lazy, grabbing any answer convenient, not actualy bothering to answer the question asked.  Even in what I below credit as his 'Scumhunting' - nothing he questions or challenges in this game has required more than a few glances at the thread to pick up.  There's no deeper thought, no actual work done by him.  To say "[his] impressions" given the level of play he has shown so far and claims to be able to currently provide -this is akin to saying in "[his] imagination".

When I challenged Toony about his having made so little of a presence for so long, that one player's claimed he had no read of him whatsoever, his answer -

A lack of a read is not a scumtell or a towntell.  You can say they're lurking I guess.

4)"They're" lurking?  Players who can't read Toony are lurking, according to Toony?  Toony is so uncomfortable with his own behavior, so arrogant, so selfish, that he can't even answer "I'm lurking, I guess".  Guess?  Further evasion, deflection, deceit.

Oh right, if you expect anything better from me you would be good and extend.

5)  Either didn't bother to check the game's rules about extension limits (as he later indirectly claims) or just doesn't care.  Just not caring could explain not bothering to check and isn't contradicted by any evident care or effort in any other part of his play this game.  Toony's here to 'win easy, if he can', just like he said in his first post.  Game can work around him, players can wait on him.  This would be acceptable to me, if Toony had been saying 'I can't play yet, I can't give this game what it deserves yet'.  Instead, he keeps his focus on being here to 'win easy, if he can' - thus his illusion of scumhunting.

6)  Except Town is extremely unlikely to win 'easy', or by 'accident'.  I do not believe that Toony believes that he can glance at the thread and pick out sure Scumtells and win as Town by doing that as his strategy.  But that could work if he were Scum, thus had a list of players known not to be Scum, any of which were good targets to be lynched by him to help ensure his win; he could skim those players posts and grab anything convenient and just ride that vote to likely success without much effort, as long as no one made that too unpleasant to achieve.  Or if he were some third party role which did not care who was lynched, especially at this point.

This is everything I can find from him that appears at all to be focused on Scumhunting.  Otherwise all of his words appear to me to be focused on answering questions, once offering additional information, several times offering excuses, and a frequent focus on self defense.

1st post -

Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better.

No follow up, no examination, nothing but a vote with a statement.
2nd post - no scumhunting.
3rd post - no scumhunting.
4th post

@Cmega3:

Max white, could you please calm down a bit?
You are acting rather weird.

This is a bandwagon vote.

NQT and Max White are being kind of dicks at each other, and judging by NQT and Dariush acting against each other in WC3 one of them is most likely town at least.  I doubt both are scum of some sort.

To me each of these challenges barely qualify as scumhunting, especially without follow up, but I am trying to identify everything that even hints of Scumhunting in Toony's posts.
5th post

When it's my first post of the game and I prefer not asking RVS questions.  I don't feel particularly keen on moving it right now, maybe Tiruin for being defensive (that vote on Caz was pretty bad) or Nerjin for going for easy targets (first Imp with me, now Max White with somebody).  Max White and NQT seems like too much of a gamble since either or both is/are likely town I feel.

This quick, weak, unsupported list of suspects looks thrown together in great haste to me.  Grabbed helter skelter, to make it look like he's scumhunting, when a more true answer seems to be along the lines of "I don't have time for this, I haven't been following it; no chance I'll follow up on this either".

@Cmega3:

@Cmega3:

Max white, could you please calm down a bit?
You are acting rather weird.

This is a bandwagon vote.

The fact that someone voted for him before did not affect my opinion. I knew there had been a vote, but I didn't pay much attention to it.

Oh pish-posh.  I've used that excuse before, but it doesn't change your lackluster post there.  You explained your reasoning now though so it's better.

This is kind of scum hunting.  I'm not sure how much 'better' means. All better?  It's not followed up on (yet), so apparently 'better' is good enough for now.
6th post - no scumhunting.
7th post - no scumhunting.
8th post

You don't post like a newbie player, at all...
...
So you're drawing the inexperienced card now?
@Jim Groove:
Why are Cmega3 and Persus13 scum buddies again?  Also you seem pretty relaxed, are you enjoying yourself?

The scumhunting towards me, the first two quoted sentences is greatly weakened by the  addition of "I don't even care anymore.  Unvote Imp."

The vote and questions towards Jim appear to be quickly snatched from whatever he had time to scan and jump on.

7)  This compilation of Toony's scumhunting does not display any real scumhunting.  The fake version looks a little like it; but there's no focus towards finding Scum. Nor is there honest admission of not having time to do a good job, there's no concern about doing a bad job instead of a good job.  It does look like he's trying to cover himself, protect himself, make it look like he's trying.  If this is 'working towards his wincon', that wincon one that doesn't matter if the target is actually lynched or not, one that doesn't matter if the target is actually Scum or not, and one that mostly just requires that Toony for now at least not be lynched.

Is Toony doing this so he can just survive?  So he can take night actions that do advance his wincon?  Because there's no clear vote lead on anyone when he looks (thus no Scum is in great danger) and he doesn't have to care who's lynched as long as it continues to probably not be him?

I don't know.  I wonder those questions, but as I search everything I see from him seems to be working without regard for a Town win - even with the qualifier of 'I have no time!  I've had no time all game!', Toony appears to be working towards his own survival - period.

[Imp]

Imp

How much focus, over the last three days or so, would you say you have put into finding Scum other than notquitethere?  You have said that he is Scum; can you explain your reasoning for your ongoing Scumhunting of him without compromising your purpose?

I'm not sure how to answer that question... Does focus come in a finite supply?
I think he is scum, my purpose is to lynch scum, as such as things are right now, my purpose is to lynch NQT.

I wasn't thinking in terms of 'the total amount of focus you are capable of expending' (yeah that's going to be hard to measure and no reason to discuss that unless I want to say 'you're not working hard enough' - which I am not saying and do not think), but in terms of 'the way you are spending your attention and efforts in this game'.

Of the work you place into thinking about the game (which is invisible to me, but all of it together is 100%), and into making posts for the thread (which we can all see, and all of it together is a totally separate 100%), how much of each seems to you to be focused on NQT versus how much is focused on everything in the game that isn't NQT?


I understand what you say about your purpose.  When I observe your behavior, I do definitely, strongly, and clearly see what I perceive to be Scumhunting - but do not recognize as the belling of a determined player who is sure he has identified a Scum.  You seem greatly to be still looking and to be still building your case.

Note I do not think you're wrong to do this at all.  But the two things appear different to me.  The first is primarily about looking for more information, and the second appears focused mostly on verifying with others that the information is scummy and conclusive enough that it should result in a lynch.

Does your 'process' have two stages?  Or do you simply work to get more and more information until we all catch up to your level of conviction by our own opinions of the information?

Lynches never (normally) happen because one player alone that I know of.  It takes some form of majority agreement, in vote at least.  It may take past this D for a majority to agree with your evidence (I know I am not yet convinced by it - though there are imperfections in your logic and reasoning, that's not what's holding me back - I see several of the same flaws you have identified, and I see others that you have not mentioned (yet) - but this does not convince me he is Scum.  He doesn't even seem especially Scummy to me... maybe 46% likely to be Town, and I dunno how much of the ~54% to place on Scum vs 3rd party.  Since maximum uncertainty is 50%... That's really close to 'no idea', which doesn't get me eager to vote NQT).

So, as you appear to intend to chase NQT for however long it takes, I wonder, are you concerned about the other Scum and their possible escape of notice while you do this?  If it is impossible or unlikely that NQT will be a successful majority lynch choice this D, what about the other Scum/possible dangerous third parties?

Also, do you think about such questions as 'What is the likelihood that NQT is scummy, but not actually Scum'?  Such questions bug me still, but I've only gotten to play through two lynches so far.  To me that's an important type of question and one I try to resolve, at least in rough probability.  Would you say such concerns are a waste of time?

[notquitethere]

Persus

Would you compare your analysis to sabremetrics in baseball? (Just I haven't really seen something like that before)

That's not a bad comparison. I try to ascertain what behavioural indicators really are genuine scum or town indicators and then look for these in play. I also like to look at player interactions and patterns of voting. My analytical approach to mafia has paid dividends in the past, but I don't think it's been taken up by anyone else. What's your impression?

NQT: Nerjin seems to be walking straight into your number 1 scumtell fully aware of that. That make you more or less sure of how scummy he is?

I don't believe Nerjin's excuses but he might just be lazy. If he comes out with some insightful reads and sound reasons for his lynch-pick then I'll have to reassess my opinion.

Do you really think Cmega is buddying you?

Nerjin

Oh no! Has NQT used his superior intellect to pierce my brilliant scheme!?

Resorting to sarcasm. Noted.

Hark! I admit it! I am scum!

NQT's Log, Day 1: Nerjin breaks down and claims scum. Could this be easier than anticipated?

Your vote resting upon me for purely meta reasons that CAN NEVER CHANGE are 100% accurate. I knew only your experience and intellect could piece it together. Tis a sad day for-... Wait a second. Meta can change and has many factors. It's been over a month since I last played mafia. So do you have an actual in-game reason or just old stuff? Perhaps, has it occured to you, I find dealing with so many people, people who are already active, redundant?

The thing is, I'm not voting you for purely meta reasons, the meta reasons just rule out the possibility that you're incapable of questioning players when playing as town. My in-game reason is still the same: you're behaviour follows the model pattern of a scum-player (little active interaction with others, passive question answering, refusal to commit to making judgements on others). I'm not waiting for you to give me a knock-down counterargument, I'm waiting for you to start playing like town.

Also the mere fact that you say that puts me into a bad position doesn't it? If I continue doing what I've been doing you will say "Look! Nerjin is being lazy! HE'S SCUM!!!" If I do what you say you will say "Look! Nerjin only does work when told to! HE'S SCUM!!!"

Hardly. Why would I want to trap another player, who may actually be town, into an undefendable position? You might still yet turn out to be lazy town. So, some well considered reflections on your fellow players would go along way to alleviating my suspicions.

Do you see a lack of people working on other players? I sure don't. If no one was talking to anyone else, as is not the case, I'd be more inclined to question everyone with my utmost skill. However it looks like others are being questioned well enough without me. We have 10 people posting very actively. Having me throw walls of text at people I'm not particularly focused on just throws out chaff.

So you're convinced your fellow players are asking the right kinds of questions, huh? I have had zero indication from you that you've even formed a read on more than three players.

The one person is Notquitethere. As I just explained I won't give out fetal stage cases.

I'm all ears: let's hear the accusation. You've had time enough to let the case gestate.

Just going to stop you right there for a second. @NQT, it'd appear I missed this question. My reason for not pointing out my cases at this time is that they are all too weak to be considered much of anything. If I tip my hand too early people will realize what I'm watching for and will go out of their way to avoid those things. People behave differently when they know they're being observed.

Huh, maybe your cases wouldn't be so weak if you'd actually pressed people on matters that you find suspicious. I mean, there must have been such matters if you have fetal-stage cases. But you'd like players to continue making mistakes so you can swoop down on them when they've sufficiently incriminated themselves, right? So we can expect more full reads from you at the end of the day then?

Not knowing what I'm looking at creates fear. Fear creates mistakes in people who have something to hide.

Also, you're not the Batman. Passive non-accusatory play isn't striking fear into anyone, it just makes you look like scum.


Tiruin

NQT

Oh fuck off. This late in the day there is no such thing as a pressure vote. If you're not voting the person you think is scummiest you're wasting everyone's time.

D: Calm down!
This was addressed to Toaster right? Why attack the person (I get it could be anger but I'm asking to be sure) instead of asking the reason behind the vote?

Uh... I think meant to direct this at Nerjin.


Toaster

My vote is more pressure than lynch right now, so I encourage people to do their own homework right now.  Once I have something more solid and want to convince people, then I'll present a full case.

Were you referring to your prior vote on Toony or your new vote on Nerjin?


Max

I'm getting tired of this little strawman that you keep knocking down that I'm voting you because you made that single comment early game.

We really do keep talking at cross-purposes! I know you're not voting me over my question about your question to Tiruin before she'd replied. Your voting me over my later responses. We're on the same page, I understand your case, I just think it doesn't hold up.

Now that I have finally got a reply from you, if you think it doesn't make any difference weather you are playing well or not, what sort of a defense if claiming you aren't playing well? Why make that claim if you yourself think it is irrelevant?

Look Max, you'd have a very different sort of case if I'd have claimed that I was playing perfectly and your initial queries were completely unjustified. Thus, it's highly relevant that I admitted that I don't always play well. This doesn't mean I think you should let me off of scum-slips or what-have-you, but it does mean that I acknowledge my own poor play when I spot it.

We've going around in circles here. Doesn't it strike you as odd that no one else buys your argument?

As well as myself, who else do you have a read on?

To some degree everybody, with the exception of Toony who is somewhat inactive right now, but apparently for meta reasons. I really wish he was here, but things are what they are.

'Everybody' huh. But who specifically. Could you even name three other players that have done a scummy thing?


Imp— I agree that Toony's play has been subpar but a lot of what you point out could be indicative of a selfish personality rather than role. Right now though he's my second choice for scum. He at least has made an excuse that he's been too busy to participate. Nerjin on the other hand has been quite active and intolerably passive. Speaking of which...


Cmega— do you think your case on Max is more coherent than his on me? Who else appears suspicious to you?


Toony— I know you're very busy right now, but could you briefly explain why Jim is a good target right now?


Caz— you still about? Got some current cases? Day's drawing to a close.

[Imp]

Toony:  For whenever you have time.  You asked, I'll answer ya.

What??  What did I miss??

I think Imp is too good a player to make that error

What are you basing this belief upon?

I bolded it.  Yes you provided an 'answer'.  I do not accept unspecified 'observations' as an answer, especially not from a player as time pressed as you have stated yourself to be.  For you under these circumstances to claim 'my observations', especially without any further information and without any details translates equally as thus:

'Toony's observations' == 'Toony's snap judgments without evidence' == 'Toony's imagination'

You don't post like a newbie player, at all...

So?  And?  What about it?  Have you ever met a newbie who was a mature adult?  Any newbies who came to the game already having an understanding of logic and verbal sparring?  Maybe any who have considerable experience working as a manager?  How about newbies who already know a great deal about how to handle pressure, both receiving and giving?  Maybe any who have had to deal with catching real life thieves or had to protect themselves and others from sexual predators?  (don't think it relates?  Talk about people motivated towards hiding intention and possessing hostile intent).

I was wondering whether you'd admit to being inexperienced or admit to acting oddly (aka possible scum suspect), but instead I get...yeah acting oddly would be a good way to put it.  Hence the vote!
...
So you're drawing the inexperienced card now?

Guess what.  Newbie /= idiot.  'doesn't post like a newbie' /= 'is experienced'.

Also, I am scum-hunting.  The best a person can when they have two mid-terms back to back in oh, under 24 hours at this point.  I want to take the egotistical horse and go "be glad I'm even posting substance!".

None of this matters to you.  You're playing to protect yourself and you've shown that repeatedly.  You -don't- -care- if you're voting for Scum or not.  You care about protecting yourself, and you have all game.

I -don't- expect you to scum hunt 'better' within 24 hours of taking tests.  What about the day before, the day before that, stretching back all the way to the start of play?  You've been coasting, you've been deceptive about it, and you don't care to catch Scum, you care to cover your own rear.  It shows.  You could have said 'I don't have time to scumhunt'.  Instead you said 'I am scumhunting!  I have found Scum!' while not hunting, not verifying, not trying, not bothering.

[Imp]

Looks like Caz has requested another extension, I'll add my extend too.  I don't overly care if we extend further or not, but if we get the time I expect we'll use it, and that seems better rather than worse to me.

[Caz]

Arghggh there's like 100 new posts!  Compiling response now...

[Nerjin]

@Imp

[Lots of reasons Toony isn't town aligned]

Alternatively he's working towards a college education to which he's admitted.

@NQT

Hark! I admit it! I am scum!

NQT's Log, Day 1: Nerjin breaks down and claims scum. Could this be easier than anticipated?

... Okay I laughed at that. Thank you.

Well I'm gonna have to double post since getting this out seems somewhat important. I'll have reads and the like on everyone here in a bit. But before I do that:

@Toaster: I'd like to apologize for what I said last night. There was no reason to lash out at someone who had nothing to do with the problem.

[Caz]

Skimmed all the posts, sorry that this is a bit rushed. Should be more active today.


Tiruin

...How can you not see where you were going with this if you were the one who caused it in the first place!? What kind of handwave gesture is that?

I can't even get where you gleaned the last statement. The questions I asked which you apparently intentionally skip over now become discarded for..something unconnected, and this quotation out of nowhere seems like something nice to append.

What. Caz.

I was making the point that you were only reacting to people who posed you questions with questions of your own, which was a small pool of people. By not asking questions to everyone you're not really casting a wide enough net to get the bigger picture. Making the excuse that you are able to read the questions and responses posed by others is just lazy and scummy. Why should town do all the work for you?

On that mark, your list has a few curious bits in it for an 'overview'.

list

Want me to explain myself? If I had two votes, one would be you on the pretense of suspicion--check back and see for yourself and the other would be on Cmega because of the flippancy with how he acts, and the total ignorance he moves on with. Foremost being an intentional breach of logic given everything he said, with lacking address of those questioning him (and the implied rudeness.)

An overview would contain your reads on people--I see just how you see them, but how you mark specific people as scum/town while the rest are with opinions and sidecommentary. What is your view on them?

Yes... that is how I see them. If I just put a list of names with "scum" or "town" next to them it would mean nothing. You have to have reasons behind your arguments.

Please note the bolded portions:
@Me: Where is the shiftiness? Outline. Defend that accusation. ALSO I'M FEMALE IF YOU DIDN'T GET THE HINT.
@Persus: Expound on the strange action. Correlate.
@Cmega: Opinion of him. Relate that opinion to scumminess and your chosen vote-target.
@Imp: ...You just seem to be wanting to give a snide remark of her there. If High Activity is the only mark, why don't others surpassing your own post count get the same note? Is that the only thing which gives a town point?
@Max: Seemingly contradictory. How is exaggerating akin to actively scumhunting in that context? Reword if misunderstood.

Any particular reads you want to expound on? Because it mostly seems commentary there.

re: @Tiruin - You've changed your vote at least 3 or 4 times, as soon as something looks suspicious to you. Just waiting to see if someone will join you on voting them. Heck, you voted for me when I called you out on being reactionary. I suspect you'll stop on whatever lynch is easiest.
re: @Persus - Don't you think it's strange that he was so concerned with who Cmega was voting? I took it to possibly be a noobscum tell.
re: @Cmega - He gives no reason for his votes and just wants to jump on whichever bandwagon is available at the time.
re: @Imp - She posts hugely long arguments with not enough substance to deserve the length of them. It honestly puts me to sleep. There's being active, and there's being active for the sake of looking active. I believe Imp to be the latter.
re: @Max - He might not think he's exaggerating but merely pressing the case strongly. There's a difference between exaggerating because you're scum and exaggerating because you've convinced yourself of something beyond the evidence. I'm not sure of him either way.


Persus

Ah nice strategy you have of making a statement implying I'm scum to get me angry and make a slip-up. How often does this work?
And I mainly learned you consider newbs a nuisance and would prefer it if we stuck to BM.

That's surprisingly useless information. Do you think it was a good use of your time?

If NQT is an important and got lynched accidentally because of that then there would be major problems.

Why are you so worried that NQT is important? Know something we don't?

Why are you buddying me Cmega3? Why should you care so much about a question I asked? It won't have much effect on you and will have a big impact on me. Are you scum that thinks buddying a newbie town will get him lynched?

Too little, too late.

Nerjin

Hark! I admit it! I am scum! Your vote resting upon me for purely meta reasons that CAN NEVER CHANGE are 100% accurate. I knew only your experience and intellect could piece it together

Yeah, you're not threatened by what's happening at all. I was considering changing my vote to Persus, but I think I'll stick on you for now.

Toaster

My vote is more pressure than lynch right now, so I encourage people to do their own homework right now.  Once I have something more solid and want to convince people, then I'll present a full case.

We don't have much time left. Are you planning on presenting your case before the day's end?

NQT

Caz— you still about? Got some current cases? Day's drawing to a close.

I am here! Should be able to respond a bit throughout today - was busy yesterday.

Max White – has been very active in scumhunting, but could be exaggerating his arguments against NQT for an easy lynch.

I'd contest this point: he's been very active in pursuing a case against me, but had yet to converse with all players in the game as of yesterday.

Trying to seem reasonable so people will think you're town? If he was making these arguments against someone else, would you be convinced and lynch yourself? (Assuming you weren't you, of course.)

Imp

4)"They're" lurking?  Players who can't read Toony are lurking, according to Toony?  Toony is so uncomfortable with his own behavior, so arrogant, so selfish, that he can't even answer "I'm lurking, I guess".  Guess?  Further evasion, deflection, deceit.

I took this to mean "If you can't get a read on someone, it's usually because they're lurking." Not the other way around. I do find fault with Toony's lack of input so far, but lurking isn't enough to warrant a lynch D1, imo. Stick to who is scummy. If Toony fails to participate on D2 (as he promised), we can lynch him then.

Trying to lynch a lurker is also lazy, in my opinion. I find it strange that you're going for Toony's lynch - maybe because he can't really defend himself (hard for him to get several large posts in before the day's end, especially when matched against your own verbosity), and if you lynch him D1, he won't get a chance to.

Looks like Caz has requested another extension, I'll add my extend too.  I don't overly care if we extend further or not, but if we get the time I expect we'll use it, and that seems better rather than worse to me.

Er, I was supporting the first extend. Do we really need two at this point? If we get close to day's end with a nolynch, I'll support it.

[notquitethere]

Caz

Trying to seem reasonable so people will think you're town?

What kind of question is that? I'm seeming reasonable because I am reasonable. What would you expect town to do?

If he was making these arguments against someone else, would you be convinced and lynch yourself? (Assuming you weren't you, of course.)

No, as I don't consider defensiveness to be a scumtell. No one else appears convinced either. What do you think?

[Nerjin]

Alright, since it looks like I’m gonna be the first to go here is my read on EVERYONE a few players, along with at least one or two pieces of evidence as needed.:
Nerjin:
Lazy lazy bastard. Doesn’t seem to have put as much effort into it as he could though I’m pretty sure he’s town. I lied a bit when I said I’d give out pieces of information on everyone. Make that everyone-1. Also apparently confuses BYOR12 with this game in which there is quite a bit less than twenty quadrillion players.
Jim Groovester:
Seems particularly against Imp for his HUGE walls of text [I agree but more on that at 11.] and says that Max White’s vote makes no sense [I agree again] though he’s still voting Persus13

Omega3: You decided to unvote NQT or not?

This is the only thing you can think of to ask? What do you care whether Cmega3 unvotes notquitethere?

Here, I've got one for you. What do you make of this vote?

Persus13.

Which is fine and all I guess but since then he’s put more effort towards Max and Imp. I’m going to go: Null-lean-Town for the big guy here.
Imp:
He seems earnest enough despite pursuing an obvious dead-end in the beginning. After he stopped wasting our time on that he seems to be doing a lot of work. SEEMS to being the key-word. He’s WAY to verbose at points and that makes it sort’ve hard for me to follow along with what he’s saying. I’m against how he’s attacking Toonyman for not being able to devote time to the game. However it doesn’t seem scummy, it just seems like a dick move. Null-lean-town
ToonyMan:

I do not make RVS votes, you misinterpret and I am severely lacking the time and energy to be more coherent.  I find Imp scummy for being verbose and misleading and try to figure out what they are even saying to me in this WoT.  And in the very post you quote me giving reasons on other suspects like Tiruin or Nerjin who I would easily vote if I wasn't particular to Imp right now.

For the most part he seems to legitimately believe that Imp is being too verbose to be town. I don’t agree with that BUT he also does seem rather strapped for time so I’m going to go with Null on him for now. I’m hoping he comes back soon though…

Caz:
Up until just recently I’ve had a sort’ve Newb-town vibe but

Nerjin

Hark! I admit it! I am scum! Your vote resting upon me for purely meta reasons that CAN NEVER CHANGE are 100% accurate. I knew only your experience and intellect could piece it together

Yeah, you're not threatened by what's happening at all. I was considering changing my vote to Persus, but I think I'll stick on you for now.

Makes me wonder something: Why were you considering changing your vote and is me not panicking really a good enough reason to keep it on myself?

As it stands now I’m thinking Newb-null-lean-town but that’s just me.
 That’s not everyone but I’m gonna take a break. I’ll get everyone else later if I can.

[Mephansteras]

The Scribe's Tally Sheet
Cmega3: Persus13, Tiruin
Jim Groovester: ToonyMan
Max White: Cmega3, Nerjin
Nerjin: Caz, Toaster, notquitethere
notquitethere: Max White
Persus13: Jim Groovester
ToonyMan: Imp


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today. There is 1 motion to Extend the game to ~5pm Pacific Thursday. 3 Motions total required to Extend.

[ToonyMan]

One mid-term down, one to go.


@Cmega3:

@ToonyMan - Do you think Mafia pushing town to lynch another Mafia member a good idea if it can improve odds of success? If so, what ocations could it be used on?

I don't think bussing is a very good idea.  I remember an older game from this year where Toaster bussed I think and it just hurt the mafia team.  I think the distancing you get from bussing isn't worth it unless you're pulling a big gamble.


@Imp:

Unlimited Words Work

You know, with this amount of effort I have a harder time believing your mafia.  Your suspect is wrong, but you seem genuine on your attack, the most convincing bit is probably here for me:

5)  Either didn't bother to check the game's rules about extension limits (as he later indirectly claims) or just doesn't care.  Just not caring could explain not bothering to check and isn't contradicted by any evident care or effort in any other part of his play this game.  Toony's here to 'win easy, if he can', just like he said in his first post.  Game can work around him, players can wait on him.  This would be acceptable to me, if Toony had been saying 'I can't play yet, I can't give this game what it deserves yet'.  Instead, he keeps his focus on being here to 'win easy, if he can' - thus his illusion of scumhunting.

Which is tricky word play, but I should be more careful with what I say.

Your accusation seems primarily that I am a survivor though, which is not true (I am not anti-town of any sort).  Do you think I'm mafia or third-party, exactly?


@NQT:

Toony— I know you're very busy right now, but could you briefly explain why Jim is a good target right now?

He hasn't been pressured at all for most of the day.  Since nobody had the incentive to I'll go into unexplored territory myself.  He also seemed pushy on me attacking Cmega3 more, so I'd like to learn in further detail why him and Persus13 are scum buddies.


Also extend again.  I'd like to at least exchange with Jim before day end.

[ToonyMan]

@Nerjin:
Wait so, everybody in this post you have null or null-lean-town reads on?  You're on the chopping block for being lynched, do you suspect anybody besides Max White?

[Nerjin]

Yes though at the time I don't have enough time to go into as much detail as I'd like. Extend before I forget. I'm just headind down the list of players I have. One at a time.