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[Morgorin]

Basically, I'm here to discuss genetics.  Inspired by a paper I read about digital organisms and using said organisms to provide further evidence to support evolution, I've decided to look into the genetics of dwarf fortress.  Unfortunately, the wiki information is decidedly lacking.  I'm planning to experiment quite a bit and I'm going to use modded organisms.  Basically, I would like to use the existing genetics system, if possible, to add in, essentially, an allele, possibly recessive, that would increase the fitness of the organism, maybe a natural fighting skill or something.  So, basically I'm asking what has been done with genetics already?  What is impossible in the current system?

[Anathe]

I'm not nearly clever enough to link to other forum posts, but I believe someone has actually been working on Dwarven genetics.

[itg]

I am nearly clever enough to link to other forum posts: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127734.0.

[Morgorin]

Thanks!

[wierd]

Hey, that's MY thread!

So far, the basic conclusions were that physical identifying features (hair, eye, skin color, etc) seem to have a hereditary basis, but actually useful characteristics, like disease resistance and focus, appear to follow a hard coded probability function, and don't appear to be influenced by breeding.

You can still conduct research on eye and skin color to your heart's content. I won't mind. Saves me from having to do it!

[Morgorin]

Actually, this is terrific!  The more people we have hammering through dwarf genetics, the better results we will get!  Not to mention my computer lags horribly with too many dwarves, though I'm turning off the weather to help just a bit with this.  Ideally, I'd like to attempt genetic testing at various history lengths, under various conditions (savagery, etc) with regular dwarves run under the same conditions as a control.  Unfortunately, if there is no way to make any kind of non-appearance traits inheritable, there is no testing for fitness...

[wierd]

There are 2 potentially "useful" characteristics that on the surface have a genetic basis.

Fatness/leanness
Gigantism/smallness

The first one determines how much fat, and how many layers the creature/dwarf will carry, and the second one determines the "size" of the creature, and how much meat it is carrying on its bones. (Muscle tissue.)

An obeise dwarf has "built in armor", but can bleed to death from torn fat. Protection from lacerations by armor, with the built in fat to protect vital organs from concussive injuries, can confer a survival advantage.

Similar story with "gigantic" and "very muscular" dwarves, who get a bonus in their hit and damage rolls.

You can have both "very muscular", "gigantic", and "untold amounts of fat" on the same dwarf. This combination does not seem to negatively impact their ability to do normal fortress chores, so it could be quite advantageous to breed for that combination.

[Morgorin]

I was just looking at the size modifications, actually. lol  I got this much from Dwarf Fortress Talk #8:

Capntastic:   What are the inheritable traits parents can pass on to their children. Personality, preference for certain attributes, etc. ... a curse perhaps?
Toady:   Currently what we've got are the attributes ... vaguely the attributes to an extent being passed down. It's not like if the parents have two specific numbers it doesn't pick one or the other, but there's a little bit going on there. Then all of the colours, like eye colours, hair colour, I think that uses a dominant/recessive thing now where you pass on two copies and then it picks probably the colour with the lowest index; maybe there's an alphabetic bias right now on which genes are dominant, or it might be the first you listed, it could be the first one you list in the raws that's the dominant gene. I think that's it right now, just attributes and colours, the idea this time around was just to get our feet wet and get something working, and after that really it's easy to add new genes, easy to add all kinds of effects for them. I mean, I have to code it up, it's not something you can just mod in, and of course we'd have to have discussions about this; what's the extent to which personality is passed on versus it being environmental factors and so on, I'm sure we can have all kinds of wonderful arguments on the forums and so on, but right now we're just doing simple things that are pretty cut and dried like colours. Attributes ... it's not quite cut and dried there what passes along and what doesn't and so on, but I think right now that all the attributes pass along, whether or not that's accurate is another question. Also stuff like the shape of the nose and the height modifiers, basically anything called a modifier in the raws - how curly is your hair, how long is your nose, how far apart are your eyes, what colour is your skin/eyes/hair - all those pass along right now, they have genes to pass them along. As far as curses and stuff or whatever ... whatever those end up being we can link it in, but there's nothing right now of course.

So, that's what I'll do.  I'll test for gigantism, musculature and fatness.  I'll exaggerate the percentages to better see the results.

[Snaake]

It's possible to have natural skills and stuff for castes (I think), so you can technically have a subsection that's more "fit", in a "survival of the fittest" sense, and they'll probably survive better if the natural skills are stuff like swimming or combat. The downside is that caste is determined randomly at birth (using the probability ratios you assign in the raws). Basically it's a die roll to see which caste any given individual is born into, they don't inherit at all from their parents. A good system for modeling societies/races like ants, termites etc., or even orcs (which have different "breeds" in several fantasy settings and at least WH40k), but doesn't really allow for the sort of gradual genetic shift you'd like, I think.

[Morgorin]

It's possible to have natural skills and stuff for castes (I think), so you can technically have a subsection that's more "fit", in a "survival of the fittest" sense, and they'll probably survive better if the natural skills are stuff like swimming or combat. The downside is that caste is determined randomly at birth (using the probability ratios you assign in the raws). Basically it's a die roll to see which caste any given individual is born into, they don't inherit at all from their parents. A good system for modeling societies/races like ants, termites etc., or even orcs (which have different "breeds" in several fantasy settings and at least WH40k), but doesn't really allow for the sort of gradual genetic shift you'd like, I think.

Yep, that's basically what it boils down to.  I did look into castes, but I was rather disappointed that there was no genetic aspect to them.  It did inspire me to make a caste for a race, at a ridiculous ratio (like 1 in every 10000 or something along those lines) with a ton of natural skills.  Any child born into this caste would basically become king.

[Agent of Avarice]

Actually, this is terrific!  The more people we have hammering through dwarf genetics, the better results we will get!  Not to mention my computer lags horribly with too many dwarves, though I'm turning off the weather to help just a bit with this.  Ideally, I'd like to attempt genetic testing at various history lengths, under various conditions (savagery, etc) with regular dwarves run under the same conditions as a control.  Unfortunately, if there is no way to make any kind of non-appearance traits inheritable, there is no testing for fitness...

Turning off temperature will net you ~10-40 fps. Looking forward to seeing some more information on dwarven genetics, you may want to study the genetics of an animal (dogs?) as well perhaps there's some differences?

[Boggard]

One thing I don't like about DF (although I know I will be bashed for this) is that how much indepth is the simulation. It is hard as it is to play, but having to take into account so much details is not easy.

[Morgorin]

Actually, this is terrific!  The more people we have hammering through dwarf genetics, the better results we will get!  Not to mention my computer lags horribly with too many dwarves, though I'm turning off the weather to help just a bit with this.  Ideally, I'd like to attempt genetic testing at various history lengths, under various conditions (savagery, etc) with regular dwarves run under the same conditions as a control.  Unfortunately, if there is no way to make any kind of non-appearance traits inheritable, there is no testing for fitness...

Turning off temperature will net you ~10-40 fps. Looking forward to seeing some more information on dwarven genetics, you may want to study the genetics of an animal (dogs?) as well perhaps there's some differences?

That is a marvelous idea!  I'll actually even just start with a creature, as they would be easier to create (no need for entity editing) and since there seems to be less research about creature genetics.  I'll create a brand new, simple, domesticated creature that can be trained (seems as if that might help with the historic culling, sending them into battle).  There will be clear genetic variations, including fur, eye and skin color, size variables, fatness, etc.  I don't really want to mess with the temperature, however, as that my (somehow) affect the overall fitness standards.  Phase one will be to actually create the creature, so I'll get right on that!

One thing I don't like about DF (although I know I will be bashed for this) is that how much indepth is the simulation. It is hard as it is to play, but having to take into account so much details is not easy.

I understand what you are saying and, no, I don't think anyone will bash you.  I approach DF piece-meal.  Right now, I'm looking into genetics (I'm taking some courses focusing on phylogeny and evolution, so I might even create a tree if something similar to speciation occurs).  You just have to find that one thing that gets your motor running.

[NRDL]

PTW love these genetics threads

[Morgorin]

Alrighty then, I created the creature, the humble labrat, for this experiment.  Kind of a hybrid between a rat and a dog.  There are exactly 4 color variations for skin, eye, and hair.  64 different combinations therein.  Additionally, the body percentages are exaggerated for height, broadness and length.  The lowest being 20% (dwarfism, har har har) and the highest being 500% (gigantism).  Is there anything else that can be tested on creatures, inheritable traits-wise? 

Labrat raws:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[CREATURE:LABRAT]
   [DESCRIPTION:A creature created for genetic research.]
   [NAME:labrat:labrats:labrat]
   [CASTE_NAME:labrat:labrats:labrat]
   [CREATURE_TILE:L][COLOR:7:0:1]
   [PETVALUE:1][NATURAL]
   [LARGE_ROAMING]
   [COMMON_DOMESTIC][TRAINABLE][PET]
   [BONECARN]
   [PREFSTRING:genetic stability]
   [BODY:QUADRUPED:TAIL:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:SKULL:4TOES_FQ_REG:5TOES_RQ_REG:MOUTH:TONGUE:RODENT_TEETH:RIBCAGE]
   [BODYGLOSS:PAW]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_MATERIALS]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_TISSUES]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:VERTEBRATE_TISSUE_LAYERS:SKIN:FAT:MUSCLE:BONE:CARTILAGE]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:BODY_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS:HAIR]
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:NAIL:NAIL_TEMPLATE]
   [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:NAIL:NAIL_TEMPLATE]
   [TISSUE_LAYER:BY_CATEGORY:TOE:NAIL:FRONT]
   [SELECT_TISSUE_LAYER:HEART:BY_CATEGORY:HEART]
    [PLUS_TISSUE_LAYER:SKIN:BY_CATEGORY:THROAT]
      [TL_MAJOR_ARTERIES]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_HEAD_POSITIONS]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:HUMANOID_RIBCAGE_POSITIONS]
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SINEW:SINEW_TEMPLATE]
   [TENDONS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SINEW:200]
   [LIGAMENTS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SINEW:200]
   [HAS_NERVES]
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:BLOOD:BLOOD_TEMPLATE]
   [BLOOD:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:BLOOD:LIQUID]
   [CREATURE_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]
   [GETS_WOUND_INFECTIONS]
   [GETS_INFECTIONS_FROM_ROT]
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:PUS:PUS_TEMPLATE]
   [PUS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:PUS:LIQUID]
   [BODY_SIZE:0:0:1000]
   [BODY_SIZE:1:0:12500]
   [BODY_SIZE:2:0:30000]
   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:LENGTH:20:40:66:100:150:250:500]
   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:20:40:66:100:150:250:500]
   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:20:40:66:100:150:250:500]
   [MAXAGE:5:10]
   [ATTACK:BITE:CHILD_BODYPART_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:BY_CATEGORY:TOOTH]
      [ATTACK_SKILL:BITE]
      [ATTACK_VERB:bite:bites]
      [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
      [ATTACK_PENETRATION_PERC:100]
      [ATTACK_FLAG_EDGE]
      [ATTACK_PRIORITY:MAIN]
      [ATTACK_FLAG_CANLATCH]
   [ATTACK:SCRATCH:CHILD_TISSUE_LAYER_GROUP:BY_TYPE:STANCE:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:NAIL]
      [ATTACK_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE]
      [ATTACK_VERB:scratch:scratches]
      [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
      [ATTACK_PENETRATION_PERC:100]
      [ATTACK_FLAG_EDGE]
      [ATTACK_PRIORITY:SECOND]
   [CHILD:1]
   [GENERAL_CHILD_NAME:pup:pups]
   [DIURNAL]
   [HOMEOTHERM:10067]
   [SWIMS_INNATE][SWIM_SPEED:2500]
   [MUNDANE]
   [CASTE:FEMALE]
      [FEMALE]
   [CASTE:MALE]
      [MALE]
   [SELECT_CASTE:ALL]
      [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:HAIR]
         [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:BLACK:1:BROWN:1:WHITE:1:COPPER:1]
            [TLCM_NOUN:hair:SINGULAR]
      [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:SKIN]
   [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:RAW_UMBER:1:BURNT_UMBER:1:PINK:1:COPPER:1]
            [TLCM_NOUN:skin:SINGULAR]
      [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:EYE:EYE]
         [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:BLACK:1:RED:1:PINK:1:COPPER:1]
            [TLCM_NOUN:eyes:PLURAL]

Edit:  As an after-thought, I am rather looking forward to encountering a labrat with 20% height and 500% of either length or broadness.  This will be interesting.

Edit 2: I modified the petvalue down to 1 to allow a large enough starting population of labrats.  I'm going to run a world for a long history and see if increased fitness in certain individuals affects the genes of a population on embark.  I'm also going to lower the population cap and child caps for the fortress to free up some FPS.