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Author Topic: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People  (Read 69766 times)

Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #570 on: October 06, 2013, 05:54:10 am »

I know they are, but the Sparrow should be able to do the job still otherwise we just add an external tank to drop when it reaches enemy airspace.

Twin engines come after the dog fighter, the dog fighter is more important.

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Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

3_14159

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #571 on: October 06, 2013, 10:59:46 am »

Dog fighter is kind of a strange term, since the definition whether it involves close-range manoeuvring or is just aerial combat is a bit difficult. I will, for the following, assume it to be aerial combat.

Quote
The fighter with more energy is still going to die if it tries to turn away from it's enemy to climb again because you can not climb fast enough to get out of range in the 3 seconds it will take the enemy to turn and fire on your unprotected back.
This is wrong.
Basically, the tactic looks like this: You dive in straight towards the enemy (well, to a point a bit forward in his course), then open fire once he's in range and climb out on the same course. Only then do you turn and dive in again. And again. And again. You do not need a good manoeuvrability to correct for his evasive manoeuvres since you are far enough away (see triangle formulas for that).
So, the enemy has three possibilities if he detects you (note the if) [Note: For the following I am assuming you to come in from behind him; it works just the same for the sides or from the front but changes the numbers a bit]:
- Continue on course, climbing or diving: You still have the advantage of speed and more energy, meaning you catch up to him and can zoom away again. If he tries climbing after you, he will lose speed (which you do too but can afford as you have a higher speed from your dive) and will risk stalling. This is the only time he has an opportunity to engage you. I'll come back to that in a bit.
- Go to the sides: You can still correct your course and get him. If not - do another pass later. He cannot shoot at you.
- Reverse course: Still able to correct. If not - again, other pass. He cannot shoot at you.

Engagement time: The engagement time depends on the speed of approach (subtract the two speed vectors) and the guns ranges, plus the time needed to point the plane in the right direction. Of course, only a fraction of that will hit depending on pilot skill, but let's just assume they're the same fractions and therefore are not important. Let's assume a speed difference of 50m/s (180km/h) and effective weapons ranges of 200m.
If you dive towards the enemy, you have four seconds to pump him full of lead. The enemy, in turn, will have four seconds of his own to attack back - but since you are then already climbing out of the dive away from him, he needs to correct his course to gain an attack opportunity on you. Four seconds may seem much - but if you have to react to a plane zooming to your left, right, above, below or wherever, tilt yours to the right angles and then fire with an acceptable chance of hit, that's difficult. And that's only if the enemy didn't kill you during his burst.
Therefore, manoeuvrability, while important, is by far not the only important characteristic. [1]

I am still against building a twin-engined fighter for the present, since our range allows us to operate effectively without one for now. The advantages of twin-engined fighters is armament and range plus a higher engine output [Note: subjective. If I'm wrong, correct me.] We pay for this with a higher cost per fighter and less manoeuvrability. For now, I believe the exchange warrants a single-engined one.


[1] You may note that the above basically requires you to have an altitude/speed advantage. For two fighter groups on the same altitude and speed, the one with more engine power per weight and higher climb rate can force such an engagement, though, as it can outclimb the other. The advantage of twin-engined.

Quote
The point is though your enemies odds in any 1 single patrol circuit are higher that he'll get through if he only has a 5 minute window of being caught per circuit, equal over all but high speed does not make any actual difference for patrol.
Let us assume for now a single line of a thousand kilometres being patrolled by 50 fighter As and fighter Bs. Fighter A has double the speed of fighter B, 250km/h. This means that all of Fighter As are 1000km/50fighters = 20km/fighter apart. This means a time of a bit under five minutes until you see the next one.
Fighter Bs, now, are the same distance away. This means a bit under two and a half minutes until the next fighter gets to the same place.
This does not include the effect of ground maintenance, refuelling and so on (a plane isn't in flight 24/7), but there the twin-engined has the range advantage meaning more time in the air.
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #572 on: October 06, 2013, 11:47:43 am »

1000k by 50 planes? Our entire worldmap isnt 1000k wide, and the enemy could be staffing 100 planes to patrol.
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10ebbor10

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #573 on: October 06, 2013, 12:11:03 pm »

1000k by 50 planes? Our entire worldmap isnt 1000k wide, and the enemy could be staffing 100 planes to patrol.
Hypothetical example.
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3_14159

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #574 on: October 06, 2013, 02:06:52 pm »

1000k by 50 planes? Our entire worldmap isnt 1000k wide, and the enemy could be staffing 100 planes to patrol.
It is, as ebbor said, a hypothetical example. You could take one kilometre and one plane, or five hundred and a thousand planes. Or, you could take one kilometre and a hundred planes and walk on the solid way of wings :P

Now, for evilcherry's relatively recent post on consensus of designs:
anyway I would want to see some consensus designs for
1. Our fighter
2. Our next Capship
3. In a general sense our strategy

Before putting any further proposals to vote.
1. I would generally designate our fighters to be single-engined, with two to four 15mm MGs and incorporated armour, plus the ability to mount ordnance on hardpoints.
2. Capitalships - well, not yet - but my gut feeling says we don't need aircraft carriers. They are, after all, needed to project your airpower - and we have sufficient range to do so from the mainland or Crow's Island. Therefore, battleships (or rather, cannon-armed ships) are needed. I'd arm them with the new 300mm if designed and would reserve something like 5% of the tonnage for anti-aircraft armament.
3. General strategy: For me, our strategy looks as such: a) Establish naval superiority; b.1) Take our islands back; b.2) Gain the enemy islands; c) Invasion.
Using our and the Capian islands we can build forward bases secure from them and thereby fight on near-equal terms regarding plane fuel.
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evilcherry

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #575 on: October 07, 2013, 03:01:03 am »

Seeing a lot of teams are underused I just throw some practical engine design onto the table. We might need SPGs and Tanks soon. Out.

Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #576 on: October 07, 2013, 03:08:21 am »

Lol now you want to fortify those islands but when I suggested it turns ago you were against it.
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And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

3_14159

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #577 on: October 07, 2013, 03:50:17 am »

I'm having another idea for the next turn to use the teams: The RavenG platform, upgrading the Raven. Something like that:
Upgrade the Raven to be able to carry a hundred kg of ordnance and a radio. Care should be taken to require nearly no new components and take as less expenditure as possible.

The thought is to upgrade the remaining Ravens to that ground attack platform once completely obsolete. Sure, they still are pretty bad at that, but we have over two hundred available. Thoughts?

Lol now you want to fortify those islands but when I suggested it turns ago you were against it.
Of course I do. The strategic situation is completely different. Before, we couldn't even resupply those islands, didn't have air superiority, didn't even have a shot at naval superiority, no cods, and so on. And even with concentrating everything on Crow's Island we almost would've lost it. That's why I took Naval superiority as necessary condition for the plan.
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evilcherry

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #578 on: October 07, 2013, 03:54:06 am »

I'm having another idea for the next turn to use the teams: The RavenG platform, upgrading the Raven. Something like that:
Upgrade the Raven to be able to carry a hundred kg of ordnance and a radio. Care should be taken to require nearly no new components and take as less expenditure as possible.

The thought is to upgrade the remaining Ravens to that ground attack platform once completely obsolete. Sure, they still are pretty bad at that, but we have over two hundred available. Thoughts?

Lol now you want to fortify those islands but when I suggested it turns ago you were against it.
Of course I do. The strategic situation is completely different. Before, we couldn't even resupply those islands, didn't have air superiority, didn't even have a shot at naval superiority, no cods, and so on. And even with concentrating everything on Crow's Island we almost would've lost it. That's why I took Naval superiority as necessary condition for the plan.
I guess it is somehow a returning idea. Should be introduced once we got another fighter by the latest.

Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #579 on: October 07, 2013, 04:02:44 am »

I already factored in all of that mate, like I said back then.

I'm very good at tacticals, especially defensive tactics and to win you plan years ahead :).

But as for the Ravens? I'd just scrap them for raw materials, AA guns will shred the Ravens and we can't cover against them, new model enemy fighters will shred them as well and it's impossible to provide total air cover against enemy fighters a few will also get through to attack the bombers.

The Raven refit would just be a good way of throwing away pilots lives on a plante that will never be very effective for it's role, especially when the Osprey is already a near tailor made bomber, just replace the torpedos with bombs and a few adjustments and it's good to go and far more effective.
Lower initial numbers but the survivability makes up for that and being able to carry an increased payload.
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Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

evilcherry

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #580 on: October 07, 2013, 04:06:37 am »

I already factored in all of that mate, like I said back then.

I'm very good at tacticals, especially defensive tactics and to win you plan years ahead :).

But as for the Ravens? I'd just scrap them for raw materials, AA guns will shred the Ravens and we can't cover against them, new model enemy fighters will shred them as well and it's impossible to provide total air cover against enemy fighters a few will also get through to attack the bombers.

The Raven refit would just be a good way of throwing away pilots lives on a plante that will never be very effective for it's role, especially when the Osprey is already a near tailor made bomber, just replace the torpedos with bombs and a few adjustments and it's good to go and far more effective.
Lower initial numbers but the survivability makes up for that and being able to carry an increased payload.
And what the fuss? The Raven isn't built of sensitive/critical materials, and they can be outfitted with little industrial capacity. In addition they make a good trainer aircraft.

The Raven will still have a few years worth of second-line duties.

Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #581 on: October 07, 2013, 04:07:58 am »

I am still against using resources on badly outdated aircrafts, while they may become our Po-2 that's not a route I like. Even Seagulls, operating over friendly waters took quite a hit, ground attack Ravens will just die fast



Also, why don't produce those tankettes? Aren't they more useful than trucks?
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #582 on: October 07, 2013, 04:09:06 am »

Not by much in my opinion, I'd rather just wait and produce a real tank.
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Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #583 on: October 07, 2013, 04:13:37 am »

Why vote for designing something and then never produce it?
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

evilcherry

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #584 on: October 07, 2013, 04:13:44 am »

I might change my mind for the Tankette if you guys abandon your pet projects and move onto the larger engine.

Both are of some importance, might help the situation a bit, but people are reluctant to move onto them for some reasons.

Its quid pro quid, mate.
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