Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 21 22 [23] 24 25 ... 83

Author Topic: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People  (Read 69647 times)

ICBM pilot

  • Bay Watcher
  • D'awwww
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #330 on: September 30, 2013, 08:01:06 am »

what do you mean?
Logged
On the plus side, they managed to kill off 20+ children

Ukrainian Ranger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #331 on: September 30, 2013, 08:20:47 am »

3.14
20km\h submerged? That's a lot

In fact Cod is a very fast submarine if we talk about underwater speed, I think  because of it's oversized electro-engines and suppose that it's without cargo on board

I can't say that Cod is slow above-water either... Not fast. Yep. Slow? no


Let's look at German typeIIA submarine of similar size designed in 1934

Displacement:
 254 tonnes  surfaced
 303 t  submerged

Propulsion:   All types : 2 × MWM RS127S 6-cylinder diesel engines, 700 hp (522 kW)
 2 × SSW PGVV322/26 double-acting electric motors, 402 hp (300 kW)
Speed:   
 13 knots (15 mph; 24 km/h) surfaced
 6.9 knots (7.9 mph; 12.8 km/h)

Armament:   
3 × torpedo tubes (bow), 5 torpedoes * (I think it's 1.5t torpedoes)

And compare with what you want to achieve. This game is kinda arcade style and differs from reality here and there but let's not push it too far :)

And snorkels had a lot of problems, and mostly were used to recharge batteries while staying relatively hidden from enemy ASW forces


Just understood how unprobable my submersible is :) Even without anything useful on the deck
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 08:25:51 am by Ukrainian Ranger »
Logged
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

evilcherry

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #332 on: September 30, 2013, 08:26:36 am »

what do you mean?
Then explain how a rocket torp is superior to a conventional torp.

Patrick Hunt

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #333 on: September 30, 2013, 09:33:25 am »

UR, we're training a team in guns this turn, wouldn't it make more sense to do the coastal gun next turn when we have a team trained to do it? The gun would very likely be far superior then it will be with whatever random small team gets given it this turn.
Logged
Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

Ukrainian Ranger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #334 on: September 30, 2013, 09:42:08 am »

well, see my post in the tread, but in fact trained team can improve failed design, or use the experience to make a better one, also I think it's a bad idea to lose our veteran engineers for one turn
Logged
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Patrick Hunt

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #335 on: September 30, 2013, 09:49:01 am »

Trained veterans are going to be much better then just veterans.
Logged
Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

evilcherry

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #336 on: September 30, 2013, 10:17:51 am »

Returning to the aircraft question.

I understand that UR wanted a dive bomber over a torp bomber. Here's why I don't believe in that we are fit for one, yet:

1. We have a good torp available now, and it needs a platform. Raven refits are good for the moment (and frankly should be here by now) but they should be seen as a stopgap.
2. Dive bombers need a much sturdier airframe. At least we need a "proof of concept" which might be suitable for either a frieghter or a patrol bomber/torp bomber, but definitely not a Dive bomber or a Fighter until we are good enough with the design.
3. There is nothing to stop a torp bomber to carry bombs, only they are as good as conventional bombers.
4. However, I can forsee one after another fighter iteration, after a freighter plane/strategic bomber, or before them. But then we need to make sure that we have the right technology for the airframe, and honestly the Patrol bomber is the best place to start with one.

Patrick Hunt

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #337 on: September 30, 2013, 10:21:16 am »

We couldn't afford to do a refit until after this coming turn. Given enemies superior numbers we need the full coming turns worth of Ravens for fighters to give us a reasonably big air force before we start diverting some of it to bombers. So the torpedo bomber will come in at just the right time.
Logged
Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

Ukrainian Ranger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #338 on: September 30, 2013, 10:23:25 am »

My plan to increase effectiveness of our teams and completely reorganize them

Alpha (large) Size, large: Intended purpose: design aircrafts. Current delta team - 1 novice engineer replaced with one master engineer , and one novice engineer to be replaced with 1 veteran engenieer
- 1 Master engineer, 1 veteran engineer,  1 veteran engineer (Aeroengineering), 3 engineers (Aeroengineering), 4 novice engineers (Aeroengineering)

Beta team Intended Purpose: design non-aircraft large projects
-1 Master Engineer, 3 veteran engineer, 6 engineers

Design team Gamma  Intended purpose: upgrading existing vehicles (especially aircrafts), designing rockets, doing other first priority med projects
1 Master engenieer , 2 Veteran engineers, Engineer (Aeroengineering), novice engineer (Aeroengineering)

Design team Delta Intended purpose: work on second priority small\medium projects or together with Epsilon work on third priority large projects
2 Veteran engineers, 3 engineers

Design team Epsilon Intended purpose: Third priority projects like infantry weapons
1 veteran engineer, 3 engineers, 1 novice engineers

Design team Zeta
5 novice engenieers

To be trained in manufacturing techniques, studying how to make designs  that will be easier\faster\cheaper  to produce without loss on performance, after the study will be disbanded and one manufacturing engineer will be added to teams above, raising teamsizes from 5 or 10 to 6 or 11


Any thoughts? Will also appreciate double check of number of engineers


« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 10:29:33 am by Ukrainian Ranger »
Logged
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Patrick Hunt

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #339 on: September 30, 2013, 10:47:12 am »

I have one thought.
We are not messing around transferring individual engineers from team to team. They are fine as they are.

Alpha is going to be trained in naval engineering and will need those master and veterans anyway because our warships are a long way behind the enemy. They need all the experience they can get.
Beta is going to be trained in armored vehicles since it's likely we're behind in that as well.
Delta provides us with aircraft and will gain experience perfectly fine on those jobs.
Gamma is being trained in guns now and is 5 veterans so the moment they're ready we have a great team in place for designing new guns.

We have no need to start messing with the teams.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 10:50:25 am by Patrick Hunt »
Logged
Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

Ukrainian Ranger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #340 on: September 30, 2013, 11:03:48 am »

I doubt that we can train large teams, it sounds kinda unbalancing. Even if we can, sending all our best engenieers to train for one year, when we are at war... doesn't make me happy

Our teams are not fine, if we'll send gamma to train now, we'll have only four teams, one of them are 100% novices

Also, aeroteam lacks experience and has too many novices... expect flaws in designs. Can we afford this now?

Overspecialization will lead to situation when we'll design exactly one ship, exactly one aircraft, exactly one tank per turn... quite boring route

Focusing all good engineers in few teams will also lead to the situation when only most voted proposal will end with usable designs
Logged
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

3_14159

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #341 on: September 30, 2013, 11:06:29 am »

All right, fairly large post coming up answering to different ones. First:
the main boats we will use it on will probably be PT boats and maybe our torpedo boat so rough water won't be as much of a problem and the xp will be useful for flying boats, hydroplanes, and other things that need to be fast unless all water related things are in the same category.
how hard could making a solid rocket engine be(for future arguments don't point out flaws that your design would have two)?
I'll try making my statement clearer: We need to design four things for each of the weapons: Warhead, Guidance, Engine and Body. Warhead is pretty easy, and I will ignore it for now. Additionally, references to the rocket refer to a flying anti-ship rocket, references to torpedo to the rocket-propelled surface torpedo.
Guidance is the first difference. The torpedo needs some way to correct for waves and currents, while the rocket just needs to hold the direction and correct for wind. That's pretty relevant in complexity, especially as we don't have miniaturized electronics available.
The engine is probably nearly the same, but needs maybe a bit more complex engines for the rocket as it cannot use a rudder like the torpedo.
The body is for the torpedo an analogon to a boat, for the rocket to a plane. Needs to be airtight for the torpedo.
To sum up: The rocket needs less complicated tech due to easier guidance. The actual new technology is the rocket engine used for both. The torpedo requires calm seas, or it will go off course due to the waves (the few moments I've seen from the show, they tested it in a pool against a target less than 250m away - far from ocean). Plus, such a torpedo will not be airdroppable.
For the experience: We have experience with both boats (including fast ones) and why do we require more specifically from that project? It's a proof-of-concept for rocket technology.



long post about subs.

Huh. That happens when you start pulling numbers from somewhere. You're right.
An addition for snorkeling: Yes, just for recharging batteries. But even that is very useful against air searches. Our situation is, I think, similar in respect to air cover as the Bay of Biscay. That is, under air attack thread.

How about: The Swordfish class submarine: Four torpedo tubes with spares (2-3 per tube), a high underwater speed and a diving depth of over a hundred metres. Design it only to be used submerged, with a snorkel. No deck gun. I do not care about the overwater speed.



Posts about engineer shuffling:
At the moment, we have one specialized team, increasing next round to two. One guns, one aero. I would generally assign teams as such, without reshuffling:
Alpha: Big, undefined projects. Will design tanks, and everything that we need that turn as big projects.
Beta: Train for Naval
Delta: design a plane-related thing per turn.
Gamma: Guns. Design uhm, guns.
Eta: Smaller projects.
The main difference is to keep Alpha undefined for speciality until needed, and keep all aero-specialists together, as they only use something when they design for their speciality.
I like keeping Alpha unspecialized, so we have a design team for doing multiple things. I dislike training an armoured vehicle team, as we currently have no need for designing one armoured vehicle per turn - and that's exactly what specializing a team means.
I do like adding a manufacturing specialist to each team, though. Next round training idea?
Logged

Patrick Hunt

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #342 on: September 30, 2013, 11:17:09 am »

Sure, I don't mind to much which teams we train in what as long as we leave the teams alone.

The air team will be fine, if I remember correctly them being trained means they won't cause flaws at all as long as they're working on something they've been trained in and they'll get experience fast enough. Our air force is fine we just need to up it's numbers so it going a little slow for 1-2 turns while they gain experience isn't a major problem.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 11:18:56 am by Patrick Hunt »
Logged
Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

Ukrainian Ranger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #343 on: September 30, 2013, 11:22:22 am »

3.14

We can have armor specialists (tanks, heavy ships, land forts,  resistant heavy bombers, infantry helmets, shields for field guns)
De can have durability specialists
We can have manufacturing specialists
We can have woodworking specialists
We can have electronics specialists
We can have ergonomics specialists
We can have engine specialists
We can have plastics specialists
We can have tactics specialists (yes, engenieer knowing about how weapons can be used on the battlefield is useful)

And so on... instead you want to force teams to work only on one type of projects - BORING

On delta - I am more than sure, that master engenieer + Veteran engineer will benefit it more than novice engenieer and engenieer with specialties... And we want the highest possible chance of success on new mono-wing full metal frame ten years earlier than IRL.

And we need second team with some aero boost, unless you want to do one aviation related  per turn, forgeting about rockets, parachutes, winged shells, AA weapons (if you know a lot about planes you can give a hint or too when making something AA)  and other situations where this versatile specialization is useful... Ok, in some projects they will be just generic engenieers... happens

And I'll remove my vote for gamma.1. We can't allow ourself -1 useful project now
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 11:27:07 am by Ukrainian Ranger »
Logged
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

evilcherry

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #344 on: September 30, 2013, 11:31:38 am »

I guess small projects is what Eta team is there for. In addition I don't see anything baring us from using Delta for important aviation-related projects should the one-plane-per-turn rule need not to be upheld.

Plus our main concern is naval and air, at least for the moment. We will need some kind of Armor soon but we currently have much more important things to do for the moment.
Pages: 1 ... 21 22 [23] 24 25 ... 83