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[evilcherry]

Give it up Ukrainian, nobody but you thinks that wasting metal and production space on suicide craft is a good idea. That metal and production space can be better used on warships that are more then a 1 shot then gone weapon if it even reaches it's target at all and doesn't sink first.

Which is why I removed my vote from 11.1

We need a fleet of warships, not a fleet of modern day fire ships.


And as for your previous statement how is it different from an infantry assault? Several things but most importantly? Infantry can be replaced a lot more easily.

I would rather disregard blue sea capacity as of now. Rather, say, we should concentrate on LCSs like the Shark.

[Patrick Hunt]

We need a mixture of both, limiting ourselves to subs makes us easy to counter, if they focus on sub counter measures we'll start taking a lot of losses we can't afford with our very limited production capacity at the moment.

We need to get another dock running and if it'll fit I'd suggest adding an airfield, dock and factory for Ravens to each of our islands once we reclaim them.

Once we have them secure building a fortress on each one that includes a factory that produces planes allows us to up our building capacity, station a permanent force on each island for defense and most importantly. A fortress with an air and naval force can't simply be bypassed it has to be assaulted and taken or they leave themselves exposed. Fortress islands will be our best friend for buying time against future attacks as well as providing strong points for counter offensives. As well as meaning each island builds it's own defense force if we ship some workers out to them so each island will be able to withstand a siege for long enough for us to send in support unlike now where most of them are almost helpless. We would also need to add A lot of heavy artillery for anti ship fire and incase of landing parties and a lot of MG emplacements. But if we set this up an attack on us will take weeks or months just to breach the outer islands and in that time we can easily launch a counter offensive.

Or at least thats what I want to propose, given the low relations we have with other nations odds are good we're gonna find ourselves on the wrong end of a cluster fuck sooner or later so we need a damned strong defensive screen in place to shield the mainland from attack from the sea. If we can force them into a siege on each island they have to spread out and a spread force is the perfect target for a combined sub and aerial assault.

We also need to improve relations with our land neighbor a lot to try and avoid them turning on us.

[10ebbor10]

On a side note, just a reality check. Unless otherwise stated, the rocket Torpedo will be a liquid fuel rocket. (As it's a subdesign of a liquid fuel engine). Also, this is a cryogenic design (Liquid Oxygen), which means that it musts be kept cold, and has a tendency to accumulate ice if exposed to air.

Additionally, it's pretty volatile, and an incredibly new technology. The first military Liquid fuel rocket was the V-2, after all.

[Patrick Hunt]

Hey Ebbor how big are our islands? I know Crow is big enough for a good fortress but what about the other islands? I need to try and work out roughly what space I've got to work with on them so I can work out roughly how big a fortress is reasonable for it.

[10ebbor10]

The other islands are fairly small. Little strategical value, no important resources, small population (less than 10k). Not quite as small as Pitcairn, but not very big either. A bit similar to the smaller islands of many island chains.


As always, numbers are subject to change.

[Patrick Hunt]

Thats perfect for my needs. If it's out of the way they're forced to divert forces to deal with it because if they breeze past to attack the mainland we have a fleet and air force at there backs, attack an enemy on 2 fronts and he will break before long. Nobody likes having an enemy behind him. Especially an enemy with 160mm cannons and bombs.

That puts them at between 50-60km total. Plenty of space for a good fortress, factory, airfield. Enough to ensure our enemy has no choice but to at the very least divert part of it's fleet to blockade it and keep squadrons of fighters nearby at all times and even then we can probably smash any blockade they place if we keep up with the quality over quantity approach.
Also building a fort provides a good place to store supplies in the build up to an invasion of our own since we have a series of fortified positions not on the mainland.

I'm not great at designing weapons but defensive fortifications? That I can do and do well. Better think up something for that and I need to figure out exactly what I want on that mountain line as well since it'll get done sooner or later and I wanna make sure it's done right. Manning every infantry pass is probably not reasonable so need a fairly large fort in each of the 4 main passes. Enough that it can withstand a heavy assault from air and land at once and posses enough thread that the enemy wont bypass it to launch raids.

But we need a good piece of indirect artillery and a good mortar piece before we can do it properly but until then the medium naval cannon will do even if it's line of sight only.

Gonna need to make the pass forts and the island forts big to house enough of a force that the enemy has to take it seriously enough to blockade or assault it. Something small and it's not gonna pose enough risk for them to bother with it if they want to launch a full assault.


How many workers can we conscript for building fortifications at max?

[3_14159]

On a side note, just a reality check. Unless otherwise stated, the rocket Torpedo will be a liquid fuel rocket. (As it's a subdesign of a liquid fuel engine). Also, this is a cryogenic design (Liquid Oxygen), which means that it musts be kept cold, and has a tendency to accumulate ice if exposed to air.

Additionally, it's pretty volatile, and an incredibly new technology. The first military Liquid fuel rocket was the V-2, after all.

I'd rather prefer a solid propellant - ease of storage, especially if it should be used from boats or a variant from aircraft. Do I have to specify this in a design variant?

Once we have them secure building a fortress on each one that includes a factory that produces planes allows us to up our building capacity, station a permanent force on each island for defense and most importantly. A fortress with an air and naval force can't simply be bypassed it has to be assaulted and taken or they leave themselves exposed. Fortress islands will be our best friend for buying time against future attacks as well as providing strong points for counter offensives. As well as meaning each island builds it's own defense force if we ship some workers out to them so each island will be able to withstand a siege for long enough for us to send in support unlike now where most of them are almost helpless. We would also need to add A lot of heavy artillery for anti ship fire and incase of landing parties and a lot of MG emplacements. But if we set this up an attack on us will take weeks or months just to breach the outer islands and in that time we can easily launch a counter offensive.

Several problems with that:
- Production: You want a production facility inside a fortress on an island that's probably going to be sieged? Definitely not. Contrary to computer games, you need resource deliveries, you need skilled workers and worst of all that factory is going to be vulnerable. Rather produce them at home and fly them over - less vulnerable.
- A fortress with naval and air support on every island will probably leave us vulnerable. Air support needs an airfield (unless Raven gets aerodynamic), and stationing a force sufficient to prevent landings leaves them the initiative and the ability to defeat us in detail. For example, stationing two light cruisers and a few torpedo boats in each island leaves them the ability to curb stomp them with all their forces, then continue to the next one.
- And lastly, all our islands except Crow's are effectively cut off from us. They're far inside the enemy territorial waters, and unless we send a convoy shooting its way through it (inside their land-based fighter range), we cannot reach them.

So I'd rather propose continuing to fortificate Crow's Island especially with airfields and base most of our fighters there. This extends their fighting range more than fuel efficient and basing them on our own fields. And no, definitely no factories.

[10ebbor10]

Yep. When you make a variant, any feature that's not changed is assumed to remain the same.

Though it would be a counter proposal, rather than a variant, as it prevents the development of a liquid rocket engine, which was the original proposal.

[Patrick Hunt]

The fleet should remain close enough for air and artillery support to get to it and would be solely made up of submarines so it can stay hidden until it's time to move or it has the chance to attack.

The factories are mostly just to produce spare parts for damaged planes but transporting a store to it would work as well I suppose, those islands need a means of defense and the only effective way to provide that is with a fortress otherwise we look weak because we don't protect our own people properly which just adds to the odds of more people declaring war on us.

So unless we're going to abandon those islands entirely at which point we look even weaker then we need to fortify them enough to withstand a siege.

We can't afford to put most of our air force on crow either, that only covers us against attack from 1 direction so if the enemy attacks en masse from any of the 3 other directions most of our air force will arrive late to the fight and the small portion in our lands will be swept aside. At most we can afford to place maybe 1/3 of it on Crow. Enough to put up a good fight if the enemy comes that way and hold out long enough for reinforcements but any more then that and we leave the mainland vulnerable.

We need to decide, do we evacuate the other islands and abandon them? Or do we defend them? I'd evacuate them to Crow, that way the militias from them increase Crows own and they have a much higher population to draft to build the fortifications and to increase the Militia size. If it's gonna be the only fortress island it'll need all the help it can get.


Keeping all of our factories in one place also makes them more vulnerable, having a couple in another place is a solid strategy to make it harder for the enemy to hit our entire production base in one go.

[3_14159]

Yep. When you make a variant, any feature that's not changed is assumed to remain the same.

Though it would be a counter proposal, rather than a variant, as it prevents the development of a liquid rocket engine, which was the original proposal.

Added it. My bad for the confusion.


Submarines are not particularly more stealthy than other ships, especially in the era. A submarine can dive,yes, but after that moves only slowly and cannot move that far. Plus, no artillery support from submarines.

I'd rather fly in the parts directly.

Yes, the question is what to do with those islands. Problem: Both evacuation and resupply/fortification requires open seaways. Those are, however, closed, so unless we gain sea superiority or air superiority and a transport plane, we're not going to be able to send them anything at all.

Putting part of the airforce on Crow's Island is very much possible, and a sound strategy for using the others as support if needed. Keep in mind, however, that attacking us from one of the other three directions is going to have a toll on their fuel supply, therefore limiting their effectiveness.

Lastly, vulnerability of factories: True, keeping them in one place makes them vulnerable - if the enemy can attack them. Placing them in our country I assume means keeping them spread out anyway, and contrary to Crow's island we have no problem with being attacked by their navy and their air force would be far less effective.

Oh, and @ebbor, if you still need/want names:
Us: Syldavia
Enemy: Maltova
Across from the mountains: Mirenberg
And for others, Calbia, Galazon, Krassnia and Zemenia

[Patrick Hunt]

You said place most on Crows the first time though, I agree with placing some but no more then 1/3 should go to that island. We need the other 2/3 in our own lands to defend the other 3 borders.

The artillery would of been fortress based but I'd much rather evacuate the people to Crow to bolster it's worker and militia populations. Maybe try negotiating to allow them to be moved off the islands and surrender them peacefully? It'd buy us a year or two before they launch the next attack to prepare if nothing else.

What do we have to lose by trying?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

"Cod"
Displacement:   341 metric tons (376 short tons) surface
430 metric tons (470 short tons) submerged
Length:   45.42 m (149 ft 0 in)
Beam:   5.5 m (18 ft 1 in)
Draught:   3.05 m (10 ft 0 in)
Propulsion:   2 × shafts
2 × Truck engens
2 × electric thingies
Wanted Range:   1,600 nautical miles
Test depth:   30 m (98 ft)
Boats & landing
craft carried:   1 dingy
Complement:   2 officers, 18 men
Sensors and
processing systems:   2 periscopes
Armament:   4 torpedo tubes with 6 torpedoes
Other Armament: Two MGs sealed in waterproof boxes on deck, Pistols for the officers.
Armor: Whatever the batteries provide (they will be installed in the hull, inside the inner hull. Although this will complicate maintenance it will provide more armor.)

We need more votes for this, while I am far from happy using petrol engine on a submarine, some early ones did use those and we still have no good diesel
Submarines is another way to try to negate enemies naval superiority
Also, we have Zero large projects voted this turn, that doesn't seem right

[Patrick Hunt]

Whats the next letter in the greek alphabet?

[10ebbor10]

Should be epsilon

[Taricus]

Right then UR, I just put forward a couple of large projects (One which should've happened on the last turn, but didn't for some reason >.>)