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Author Topic: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People  (Read 69483 times)

Taricus

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #75 on: September 24, 2013, 11:31:47 pm »

No, static works quite well when the enemy has to go through the fortifications. A couple of infatry divisions with AA, AT and artillery support, mostly in the form of towed guns would be able to reliably repulse most attacks, and we can eschew the AA if we have a couple of wings of interceptors. Throw in a wing of CAS aircraft and we'll be fine defensively.
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Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #76 on: September 24, 2013, 11:46:09 pm »

Unless your enemy has more fighters and spreads you to thinly. Or surprises you, destroys your stationary defenses.

Small groups of mobile are still extremely useful, thats why they invented mobile artillery and mobile AA. Stationary has a lot of weaknesses that mobile makes up for.
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Taricus

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #77 on: September 24, 2013, 11:54:03 pm »

Easily solved by putting in a few radar towers in the immediate area. And they'd need a LOT of effort to take out the defenses with the defenders still in them.
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Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2013, 12:01:45 am »

Or artillery with longer range, or a bomber to get through.

Radar is a long long way off at the moment it was like mid ww2 before a working model was up for land based and that was spotty. Until then we're reliant on spotting them the old fashioned way which makes intercepting tricky and we can't cover everything with static, so a few well placed mobile AA units would make a big difference.
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Taricus

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2013, 12:05:02 am »

With air superiority, the bomber will be a hulk before our bunkers. As for artillery, they have to hope they don't get dive-bombed first (Hence why I mentioned the CAS)
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Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #80 on: September 25, 2013, 12:07:18 am »

Air superiority doesn't cut it.

Britain pulled off dozens of bombing runs way inside enemy territory, the enemy had massive superiority and Bombers still got through and made it back, so did every other country.

Back ups in place is always a good idea and even if we don't need them for offense you need them for defense, you can't cover every advance with planes so mobile AA is an infantry units best friend. Except maybe mobile artillery and a tank.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 01:01:44 am by Patrick Hunt »
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evilcherry

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #81 on: September 25, 2013, 04:12:11 am »

Static has issues.

You can't cover everything with a static defense piece and something moving fast can rush past it.
You need a healthy mix of static and mobile to provide full cover which is why I made my truck.

It can mount light artillery and AA on the back to provide mobile support to reinforce the static line or to be moved into weak spots to block them.

From original Post:

Our nation sits on the tip of a large peninsula, and also controls a couple of small islands nearby. A large mountain range obstructs our only land route to our largest neighbor.

Yes, there are passes, but then these should be heavily defended in any case, so even something got through the best it can do is to mix things up before it has to retreat back. The higher parts would probably be defended using an expansive line of defense close to the terrain, not unlike Via Ferratas.

But the main point is we do not have any immediate need of a Main Battle Tank which is both mobile or powerful, simply because we are much powerful hunkered up.

Really, if we need to be wary of anything, we better defend our seas. Hence proposals for SPGs.

Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2013, 04:20:52 am »

My design can work for an SPG, just mount the gun on the back.
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And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

evilcherry

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #83 on: September 25, 2013, 06:14:17 am »

My design can work for an SPG, just mount the gun on the back.
and hence I just make it into a dedicated SPG.

Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2013, 06:16:17 am »

Except then you have to make an entirely new design to make mobile AA.
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3_14159

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #85 on: September 25, 2013, 06:49:59 am »

Quote
9. Turtle MSV ( Large. ) : Basically this vehicle http://www.3vwargames.com/galleries/gall_ww2/sdfz2.jpg. Use duel project 2206 truck engine and add a rotating platform inside able to turn 360 degrees to mount a heavy weapon on. Give it 1.5cm thick slopped armor on the front 5mm the rest. ( AA gun, Indirect artillery and such. )  Include a tow bar on the rear.

Quote
9.1 Counter proposal: Mount the new 120mm gun onto it, and strip all armor, and turret traverse, leaving only the feed mechanism and elevation intact. It should be firing backwards and if needed cut the barrel short. Keep a limited traverse like other guns of the era. In other words, a self-propelled gun.

It's, partially, a question of what you want your basis to be on. Historically, the self-propelled anti-air guns grew from modified personnel carriers, like half-tracks or trucks. See, for example, the Sdkfz 251/17 or the M45 quadmount. Contrary to that, most self-propelled artillery was mounted on outdated tank chassis, like the Wespe or the Priest. The reason for that, as far as I can say, is the different weight and strain on the systems. For example, a 40mm AA gun in our game weighs two tons - the 80mm artillery piece seven point five!
This means that the same system would either be underpowered for the artillery or overpowered for the AA gun. Additionally, firing the 80mm artillery gun will produce much more recoil than the 40mm AA gun, possibly enough to topple the vehicle if not fired in front or to the back. (This assumes fixed weights. Plus turrets, it's 5t vs 25t)
On the advantages of mobile vs fixed AA:
Mostly, cost. Basically, we can assume the cost of a mobile AA vehicle to be bigger than 9 construction points (truck + 40mm gun). This is a pretty conservative estimate (no armour, only one engine and so on), and I'd expect more like 15 or so cost. While the fixed one requires fortifications, it still has at least an advantage of 2 - two fixed AA guns vs one mobile.
Additionally, it can be better fortificated. Concrete is cheap, it doesn't need to move, and so on. So, for defense, use the fixed one.
Mobile AA guns can, and are, more effective when the others cannot be brought to bear, for example in a land offensive. Which is pretty much what we can count on not to happen for now.

Edit: Clarification: What I mean by fortification is to dig a hole and put the gun in there. You restrict your firing arc, but only direct hits will not affect the gun. It's a similar principle as foxholes. Something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pillbox_Type_23,_St_Martin%27s_Battery,_Westen_Heights,_Dover_%28rear%29.JPG
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 06:56:22 am by 3_14159 »
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Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #86 on: September 25, 2013, 07:28:05 am »

I get that, the problem I have is rigid defensive lines have a long history of being beaten by a more flexible  enemy.

So I  want to add a flexible element to our defense to counter.
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Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

3_14159

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2013, 08:19:50 am »

Yup, that's an important point, and we will need them some day in the future for our own mobile troops. I do believe, however, that we have higher priorities, like a tank. After all, planes - while they can do heavy damage - cannot conquer nor hold land. Instead, that would require ground troops, against which tanks are useful.
Against planes, either AA guns or planes are useful, with the latter also necessary for our islands and seas.
Basically, what I am saying is: We will need self propelled anti air guns, but not yet, due to our strategic location (islands, coast) and our current force composition (no mobile elements).
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Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2013, 08:37:34 am »

Hmm, point accepted. I'll do my votes tonight if the turn ain't up and then focus my effort on infantry based kit thats essential for defense.

I have a couple of ideas for it and there small leaving space for planes, boats and tanks.
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Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

10ebbor10

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2013, 01:15:38 pm »

Don't worry, I decided to finish the map first.

Link

I'm actually still working on it. Don't expect much. Come and have chat, or not.

Map is being worked on. Having names and colors for Us and enemies would be nice. We got:

- Us
- Our only land neighbour
- Country which we're having tensions with
- A large country on a neighbouring country, which isn't bothering us as long as we don't bother them
- Smaller country, only on the map because it's one of our few reluctant friends.
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