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Author Topic: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People  (Read 69547 times)

Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #180 on: September 27, 2013, 02:55:38 am »

Meanwhile in the here and now we're at war and totally waste one of our advantages.
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And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

3_14159

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #181 on: September 27, 2013, 05:15:08 am »

A few more questions for ebbor:
- Team delta has an aeronautic speciality, that is flying things. But it's only a team for medium/small projects, while new planes are large ones. Can we reorganize to use that bonus, or do we have to train another small team and merge them?
- Does aeronautics include engines for planes?
- Can you give us the range from Us to Moldovia and from us to crow's island and from crow's island to Moldovia, plus the fighter's range?

Now, I believe we will need new fighters someday, but we first need (torpedo) bombers, recon planes and transports. For that, and for new fighter designs we need a new aircraft engine. We need that badly. Monowing fighters need at least 3-4 times the power output of our current engine to be effective, and bigger planes need that, too. I'll propose developing such an engine later.
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Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #182 on: September 27, 2013, 05:49:14 am »

Works for me, I wanna push our air tech out ahead of the enemy combat wise so mono wing is our best friend.
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And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #183 on: September 27, 2013, 06:20:27 am »

Maybe I should design a higher power MG. I might be able to get it stronger and smaller if it's purpose built for a plane.

Also I proposed the second small team for Aero training to then combine the 2 into a large Aero specialist team, with that getting our first Mono wing model into the air should be pretty simple especially if we keep those 2 teams busy until then to get them all up to Engineer and Veteran Engineer.

Ideally we need a powerful engine, a powerful gun, descent armor but most importantly it needs to have the right body shape to give it the best possible speed and maneuverability. When we start deploying it we need it to dominate everything in it's path.

I'm thinking give the fighter 4 guns then strip 2 and add mounts under the main body and wings for a bomber variant? They use the exact same plane so we can get an air superiority fighter and bomber into the air at once. The bomber would be a little slower but fighters are always faster anyway and it will allow us to begin offensive operations straight away while a purpose built bomber is designed then we can modify the bomber variants into fighters to increase the squadrons available to provide air cover.

I also proposed the second factory so the moment it's ready we can retool them 1 for fighter 1 for bomber and phase out the Raven class for everything but border recon.

I also just realized something we've all over looked thats very important for aerial operations, Radios. Planes are very very limited without radios, so we need one up ready for the mono wing to give us a massive tactical edge. If we can co-ordinate everything during combat and they can't then the battle is as good as won already.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 06:45:23 am by Patrick Hunt »
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Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

3_14159

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #184 on: September 27, 2013, 06:55:52 am »

Pushing ahead, yes, but not too much. I'll vote against Epsilon, for example, once it's clear whether Delta can design whole planes.
My reason for that is simple - yes, it's important to be advanced in a single field, but not when you risk being behind in every other. Plus, synergy effects.
For example, if we chose to train them in building better guns (whether it's a catch-all terms catching small arms and cannons or just cannons), we can build better and lighter guns, which in turn means better armament for planes, tanks, infantry, artillery and fixed positions. Or, engines. Specialists are useful for designing tank, warships and plane engines.
Something similar (though not for technology, but for steel production needs) happened to the Japanese in WWII, where their tanks were outmatched once the US started using Shermans against them.
This strengthens our technology overall, and is even better when we use synergies like that. For example, imagine a plane using an older engine and two 15mm machine guns (but masterfully combined), or one using an engine with about double the power and two 20mm auto-cannons, but not that masterfully combined.
I'd rather take the latter, I must say.
I'd propose we generally should try to keep each specialist busy in his own field of expertise - but for now keep those expertises separate.


Maybe I should design a higher power MG. I might be able to get it stronger and smaller if it's purpose built for a plane.
I'd rather have a variant of the 15mm MG. You can probably eliminate some parts making it lighter, and increase firing speed as the air cooling's more effective when moving at 200km/h than when moving at two. (I'll probably make that 8.1) The question is how you want to build an MG that's more efficient almost across the bank while changing nothing and without a specialist team. That needs very, very lucky rolls. The higher rate of fire can be achieved (by better air cooling), and they're accurate already. Lightening them can be done, too. But bullet penetration/power will probably need a bigger bullet, and therefore calibre.

My view for planes is that we have an awesome fighter one that will last us several years without incident, and should rather concentrate on updating the engine first, then updating the armament all the while refitting the planes. This allows us to use the old ones, too, and once we have technology actually warranting a new plane (a new and powerful engine, at least) we design that.

Oh,  for number 9: I had assumed that the planes would already have a radio integrated. Good question, though.

Edit: Additions to the edit (I hate the forum not notifying me of edits): That's a good plan, and as I've said requires a new engine before being effective. I am a fan of a multi-role design, though. You could, for example, build the fighter with two 20mm guns and then strap bombs on it in the field if you need close air support. Less capable than a purpose-built plane for both, but if you get twice as many for air combat at first, and then phase them to bombing once no longer necessary, you should still win. Remember - if you put mountings on a plane you can just as well let the bombs on the ground to be faster and more maneuverable for aerial combat.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 07:00:41 am by 3_14159 »
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #185 on: September 27, 2013, 06:56:27 am »

You want to make even stronger machine-gun  than our 15mm?  We are basically 15 years ahead aircraft arnament wise, and you want even better? Doubt that our tech level will allow us to improve it

four heavy machine-guns is just too much for any aircraft we can do in next ten years or so, unless you wan't it be slow and clumsy

Raven is a great fighter We have no need to rush with better for a long, long time
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Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #186 on: September 27, 2013, 07:22:13 am »

We have no idea what enemy planes are capable of so judging the Raven is a bit early.

A whole plane with only 5 engineers would take longer and very likely come out weaker. A full team is better for it.

I'm fine on the MG I just wanna fine tune it to give our planes the best possible teeth. I planned to use the 15MM already as well.

As for the teams. I plan to focus them on the right tasks anyway, Alpha I want to train on naval craft to get us a new ship to dominate the ocean.

Beta for armored vehicles or guns.

But air is the priority. The best fleet wins naval battles, the best tank wins land. The best air wins everything. If we maintain the lead in the air by a large margin then we win everything.

I'm hoping in 3  turns we have a large Aero team and the engine ready for mono wing . If we ain't winning the war by then a mono wing fighter/bomber will seal the deal.
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Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

3_14159

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #187 on: September 27, 2013, 07:42:46 am »

Yes, three turns would be good - but developing the fighter first is probably building the house roof-first. My idea would be the following:
1924: Develop engine, train second team
1925: Develop either single-engined torpedo bomber or long-range plane, Maybe refit raven with new engine if fitting. Train one team in cannons.
1926: Develop the other, develop new cannon.
1927: Develop mono-wing fighter or fighter-bomber.
This is assuming that the Raven is effective as a fighter (which I foresee it to be, after all we've got three critical successes), and remaining so for three years. I believe this to be realistic. The others (and possibly advancing the fighter) will have to be dependant on our need - do we need anti-fleet firepower or anti-convoys? Are the Ravens getting outclassed?
But, what we need for all of that is a new engine.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 07:44:34 am by 3_14159 »
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Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #188 on: September 27, 2013, 07:51:57 am »

Thats pretty much what I planned for the next 3 years as well.

I intended for the fighter last anyway thats why I picked 3 years. It should be about right to get it done.

In that time we need to get a  new class of warship out to give us an edge on the sea and a high mobility tank as well. With a gun and naval team done for turn 2-3 from now should be ok.
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And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

10ebbor10

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #189 on: September 27, 2013, 08:42:42 am »

actually I feel strange that Comintern isn't helping us around.
You didn't ask for anything? But yeah, international forces will play a much more passive role in this game. They supply you with cheap resources, but that's everything for now.

A few more questions for ebbor:
- Team delta has an aeronautic speciality, that is flying things. But it's only a team for medium/small projects, while new planes are large ones. Can we reorganize to use that bonus, or do we have to train another small team and merge them?
- Does aeronautics include engines for planes?
- Can you give us the range from Us to Moldovia and from us to crow's island and from crow's island to Moldovia, plus the fighter's range?
- The Small/ Medium/ Large distinction is not set in stone. I mean, over time you'll need to increase the team's sizes in order to design stuff effectively. It's perfectly possible to have a medium team design a plane, but unless you're lucky they'll take 2 turns. On the topic of expanding teams I'll be nice.
- Smaller bonus. The more broadly useable the thing is, the smaller the specialization bonus.
- No. I have no sense of scale. I'll give you some relative dimensions however (which will probably conflict with what I said earlier).
           -Crow's Isle is halfway between Us and Moldavia. On a good day, it's visible from the coast.
           -Without the fuel efficient bonus, the fighter can make it to Moldavia, stay there a short time (One way voyage uses aprox 40% of the tank) , and then return to us. Fuel efficiency effectively increases range to 150%.
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Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #190 on: September 27, 2013, 08:53:29 am »

I hoped so, thats why I added a fuel vote, so now resil, maneuver and fuel are winning.

So we have a tough, agile, long range plane. Perfect for dog fights and to modify to carry bombs.

So yeah training and merging Epsilon is good then or planes will take a lot more time to build.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 08:55:01 am by Patrick Hunt »
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Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

3_14159

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #191 on: September 27, 2013, 09:56:35 am »

Quote
- No. I have no sense of scale. I'll give you some relative dimensions however (which will probably conflict with what I said earlier).
           -Crow's Isle is halfway between Us and Moldavia. On a good day, it's visible from the coast.
           -Without the fuel efficient bonus, the fighter can make it to Moldavia, stay there a short time (One way voyage uses aprox 40% of the tank) , and then return to us. Fuel efficiency effectively increases range to 150%.
Thanks for the answers! I've used the numbers you provided to do some small calculations on ranges and distances. If you want to use them, feel free to, otherwise feel free to discard them:
Visibility is about a hundred kilometres maximum, I assume. This makes Crow's island to about a hundred kilometres distant from us, and another hundred from them to Moldova.
This means the fighter has a range of about 200*2/0.8 = 500km (requiring about two and a half hours travel), which matches pretty well with the ranges of biplanes during that era (He-51 at 570km, Po-2 640km, Gladiator ca. 600). Using increased fuel efficiency, this would increase to 750km. This means the effective combat time will be circa thirty minutes and circa ninety. [Of course, basing them on Crow's Island would increase that to circa ninety minutes and about two and a half hours, repectively.]
So I'd say wow - for no sense of scale those numbers match up perfectly!

I hoped so, thats why I added a fuel vote, so now resil, maneuver and fuel are winning.

So we have a tough, agile, long range plane. Perfect for dog fights and to modify to carry bombs.

So yeah training and merging Epsilon is good then or planes will take a lot more time to build.
- I still like aerodynamic for freeing us from airfield needs
- Carrying bombs will be a problem - the total design is about 1100kg heavy, so will not be able to carry more than a hundred, maybe two hundred kilos of bombs without dropping out of the sky
- I agree.
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Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #192 on: September 27, 2013, 10:13:26 am »

Well sooner or later we'll need airfields either way.
So operational time beats shorter run way in my opinion. It makes offense and defense easier if our enemy has to disengage to refuel before we do and we can chase them down without fuel problems.

We can use the basic craft though, maybe add a second engine or just use it as a torpedo bomber so it only carries 1-2. It's a good basic design to work from whatever we decide. Maybe scale it up a bit to add more power and more explosives.

What do we want ship wise? Small and fast with a smaller but high power gun? Or bigger with a normal sized but high power gun?

I'm tempted to aim for speed but to try and shrink our long range gun a bit without sacrificing range or power so we can add extra cannons. Speed and power in one package is lethal in ship to ship combat.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 10:23:54 am by Patrick Hunt »
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Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

3_14159

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #193 on: September 27, 2013, 11:28:07 am »

Yeah, the idea behind not requiring airfields was more to allow it to operate even once all of them have been bombed - but it's a toss-up, that's true.

As a torpedo bomber it's not really useful - our current torpedo weights two tons, which is nearly double the weight of the plane itself. Even a miniaturized plane torpedo won't come under 500kg.

Ship-wise it's more complicated. Currently, we seem to be well-matched - we've lost a Glory (though vs a lucky hit), which is a significant loss, especially as we're not building any new ones, against the losses of several destroyers at least, but haven't engaged yet in a major operation. Our main need will probably be something to counter their cruisers (and later possibly their submarines).
The former will probably be best achievable by building bigger ships. I'd like a mixture of the Glories and the Protectors, type-wise. Something like that:
Revenger class Cruiser
Armament:
10 Armored and Turreted Heavy Naval Cannons in dual mounts
20 40 mm Cannons
40 Quad 15 mm Machine guns (Also armored)

Tonnage Allocations:
1250: tons steam propulsion (1 ton = 7.5 KiloWat)
ca. 1000t cruiser parts
1200 tons: armour
ca. 100 tons: anti torpedo armour
1250 tons (5 dual heavy naval 160mm cannons, 2 aft, 3 bow )
100 tons (20 40mm guns on sides)
50 tons (quad 15mm machineguns placed all over the ship)
50t depth charges or mines

That gives us a heavily armed combatant - compared to the Glory class it mounts 2.5 times the heavy anti-ship mounts, has a power-to-weight rating even a bit higher than the Glory (translating into higher speed), and as an additional bonus has a much higher air-defense strength. Only its armour is weaker: Ca. 105mm compared to 120mm. The alternative would be to adopt an all-or-nothing attitude, too, or delete one dual-mount and give it to armour, resulting in 125mm.

Edit: Oh, and since it's probably going to get the Alpha team, the design's going to be awesome ;-)
Clarification: Alpha as designer, not alpha with specialization. Alpha has six veteran and four engineers. They're pretty good.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 12:23:22 pm by 3_14159 »
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Patrick Hunt

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Re: [Discussion] The Glorious Design Bureau of the People
« Reply #194 on: September 27, 2013, 12:07:44 pm »

Ok then I suggest training Bravo in guns next turn. We can have them build an 110-140mm high power naval gun, see how small we can go without major loss in effectiveness.

Equal damage and range to the 160 but lighter. Meaning you can pack in your fire power and keep the armor high while also keeping the ship lighter then the current plan allowing more armor or higher speed.

Alpha is skilled enough to design the ship even without special training unless you hold off until 2 turns from now to train them as well, the gun is gonna be the most important aspect considering it's a ship to ship design so power and lower weight on guns should be priority.

Plane and armored vehicle guns can wait 1 more turn.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 12:10:55 pm by Patrick Hunt »
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Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.
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