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[scrdest]

LordBucket made a good point. Money paid for the product represents not the objective worth, like work used to make it, but subjective evaluation. A person who starved for a month may pay much more for an apple because the money paid for the apple will allow him to get rid of a need for food for a while, which, due to physical discomfort it causes, has a huge negative value to that person.

There's also another thing that influences pay specifically: responsibility. A fast-food worker who doesn't do his job properly can, at worst, scare a couple of people away from his workplace. A surgeon who fails at his job risks someone else's death. A CEO who sucks at CEO-ing can bring a company down by his decisions, and that in turn results in hundreds of people losing their jobs.

[10ebbor10]

Are we still talking about Sales tax versus Income tax.

A major problem with that one would be tax dodging, if it's not combined with import tarrifs and such. After all, most of the stuff you can't easily buy outside the country falls under essentials, and when prices raise dramatically, bringing goods in might become cheaper. While this isn't a problem in the US, it means that the system won't work in the EU. 


((Last note about sanitation. I'm probably wrong. I assumed the situation was similar to Europe, where we have combined sewer systems, and everyone who lives further than 100-1000 meters away from the nearest pipe just gets a septic system.))

[gogis]

- Everything is going to be automated at some point. We're going to fix that robots? Or we going to fix that robots that fix robots? Bleak future
- I am more inclined to discuss Democracy or not?/ rather than capitalism or not. Everybody common with real jobs will tell you that there is always some kind of monarchy/thyranny/military hieararchy rather than any else in a real workplace. It's affects your well being way more than any ephemeral discussion about capitalism or what not. With all informational progress we really dont care about what kind of economical approach is present. AI can really do anything by now. But people in power? Not so much.

[GreatJustice]

- Everything is going to be automated at some point. We're going to fix that robots? Or we going to fix that robots that fix robots? Bleak future

In the far future, maybe. But then, if robots do everything, then that means people need to do less and less work to get more and more things, and in turn robots will become cheaper. So if that happened, the end result would be most people not having jobs, but owning a few/a bunch (depending on how rich you are) of robots and stocks that generate money for you. Wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

[gogis]

- Everything is going to be automated at some point. We're going to fix that robots? Or we going to fix that robots that fix robots? Bleak future

In the far future, maybe. But then, if robots do everything, then that means people need to do less and less work to get more and more things, and in turn robots will become cheaper. So if that happened, the end result would be most people not having jobs, but owning a few/a bunch (depending on how rich you are) of robots and stocks that generate money for you. Wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

Like a victorian rantier? It still needs manpower to fix it. Well before we made a von neumann machine or perpetuum mobile something else must be fixed. When we talk about capitalism or whatnot, we need to quickly realise that our economy/goverment is bound to what people-in-power decide. We not living in democratic society, in the end. We want, we can imagine, but in reality we not. Huge gap between our/your country ethics and principles and workplace ones tells me we missing the point. Maybe I am sceptic or delusional, but whatever.

I mean. Fix working principles. Not country/world ones. Many people end up in slavery at their job place(frankly, I am not, but I see it). Not as a citizen. Or we will end up fixing robots 24/7, thinking we are freeest citizens of a galaxy.

[Descan]

Why wouldn't we just make a robot that can fix other robots, and other robots of its own type? No need for a human to fix a robot.

[gogis]

Why wouldn't we just make a robot that can fix other robots, and other robots of its own type? No need for a human to fix a robot.

Thats exactly von neumann machine  And why I now, as a boss, should pay your welfare?

[Descan]

A von Neumann machine is one that specifically makes other robots that makes other robots, which then can make other robots as well. A human is a von Neumann machine (well, two humans if you want to get technical.)

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a type of robot that repairs other robots, not creates them. We already have robots that can create robots (just not autonomously). It could be part of a von Neumann workforce, sure. Get the robots that mine, the robots that refine, the robots that mold those resources into the different types of robots, and the robots that repair, and you can create a self-sustaining "eco-system" of robots. But none of them individually would be able to do all of it.

You wouldn't be able to extract a single robot and re-create the entire workforce.

'Course, there's nothing stopping us from making a jack-of-all-trades robot. Dunno how good of an idea it'd be, but we could still do it. But we don't need one to make an all-robot workforce.

[10ebbor10]

Technically, a Von Neumann Machine only applies to a self replicating space probe. but the term watered down tremendously.  Besides, it's not because it has a fancy name that gets thrown around in science fiction a lot that it's impossible.

Why wouldn't we just make a robot that can fix other robots, and other robots of its own type? No need for a human to fix a robot.

Thats exactly von neumann machine  And why I now, as a boss, should pay your welfare?

Because the revolution will not be civilized? Point is, why not. After all, as a boss, you make money by selling goods to the public, if the publix has no money to buy, most of your goods are useless, and you risk a pretty high risk of social unstability.

[gogis]

I actually, hope for humanity to make their self-replicating machine, stopping care about capitalism, conquer stars (same as new world, literally), and ... or die in vain.
Current situation, when inventing cure for cancer is not profitable, when alternative fuel source is not profitable... We are fucking screwed. Thats what I do not want.

[Thecard]

Does Von Neumann literally mean "from new one (person)" in German, or am I reading that wrong?

'Cause if so, that's gotta be one of the most self-explanatory names, despite sounding like the count of some small country.



Also, the main reason we haven't cured cancer isn't because it's not profitable. Who wouldn't buy that from you at pretty much any price?
The problem is that cancer itself isn't a disease, it's more of a condition of cells. It can be caused by many different things, and some types can be cured, some can't (so far, at least). It's a mutation in the cells, it's not really a disease.
I get that this doesn't affect your point; I thought it might be good to put out there.

[Descan]

It's a dude name, John von Neumann.

[10ebbor10]

It's a dude name, John von Neumann.

Quite an important Mathematician actually.

[Descan]

Still a dude! I'm still technically correct!

[Thecard]

Huh. Then his name means "John from New-Man".

Gee, Germans are weird.