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Author Topic: Let's talk Capitalism.  (Read 26810 times)

Chaoswizkid

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2013, 03:42:22 am »

And I think it's because free markets breed competition, and competition makes for the fastest progress.

However, there is already competition. There is the competition between nations. Of course, the world no longer operates under Realpolitik (for the most part), but when it did I would have to say that was the strongest form of competition. While a free market would add more competition to the situation, I believe that there would also be a lot of wasted effort (from many competitors, one would rise as they secure the contract for a new shiny product of national necessity). Under a more despotic form of government (but perhaps not total authoritarianism), you still have competition between entities (see competition between companies and research projects during WW2 Germany) but waste is reduced if the leader is actually competent (Hitler showed definite deficiency here when he started forcibly trying to run the show). In theory, anyway.
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alexandertnt

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2013, 05:58:08 am »

Monetary competition can lead to companies being stimulated to innovate and provide better services, but it can also lead to companies trying to more efficiently manipulate their target audience more effectively than the other (hence why psychology is involved in advertising).

I would think pure Capitalism could work if people were completely rational beings. Unfortunetely they are not.

Apparently (in America), people generally respond better to the term "Free enterprise" than they do "capitalism"

Also, 1/4 of conservatives have a positive image of socialism ???
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Eagle_eye

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2013, 10:24:03 am »


Also, 1/4 of conservatives have a positive image of socialism ???

Socially conservative liberation theology types, maybe?
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kaijyuu

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2013, 11:05:11 am »

Yeah, they probably identify as conservatives for other reasons and not economics.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

LordSlowpoke

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2013, 11:14:46 am »

fascinating thread

i will be interested in the fallacies that will be found here soon :3c
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Tack

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2013, 11:22:44 am »

Why not just add some fallacies of your own?
The people who only exist to refute the ideas of others are not really contributing to society.
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Yeah, he's a banned spammer. Normally we'd delete this thread too, but people were having too much fun with it by the time we got here.

Jelle

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2013, 11:28:31 am »

Capitalism can stifle innovation just the same.

As been mentioned before, if a new idea can't be easily monetized, but might lead to betterment of mankind nevertheles, it may not come to fruition.
But more so, it makes it that the amount of capital available to a group or individual, not innovativeness (probably the wrong word, you know what I mean), is the largest factor in competitiveness. Sure both is better, but when there exists a grossly wealthy elite, it's an ever so small factor...

That's my 2cent anyway, I'm no economist of political philosophist.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 11:30:19 am by Jelle »
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2013, 12:02:48 pm »

Why not just add some fallacies of your own?
The people who only exist to refute the ideas of others are not really contributing to society.

did you just invite me-

shit son, you actually did.

i don't know what i could dump here in order to stir up a discussion. how we could essentially cut... 80%? (a little over 4 and a half bil, anyway) of humanity from working at all had anyone gotten their shit together and abolished the work = live model? we produce far more than we consume for at least four decades now, barring such fun cases as sub-saharan africa/south asia demonstrates (or anyplace where people are at the point where working does indeed mean living as you don't starve or starve less than someone else)

still you'd have to actually pick who works and who doesn't and that would be a honest-to-armok shitstormtyphoonpocalypse

the "80% of humanity" thing comes from an economist whose name i can't recall worth a damn, so ANECTODAL EVIDENCE HO

also is it just me but is perpetual growth a really silly idea to follow at this point (was a tad better when it was "invented") but there are no good alternatives so we're just sticking to it for the sake of stability?
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GreatJustice

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2013, 12:37:04 pm »

Perhaps relevant .

He sort of misses the point, and the fact that the main problem all of those involved have is that they're buying something called "insurance" basically to pay for things they'll definitely be getting in the future (basic checkups, etc), and if they have a pre-existing condition then they're basically preemptively buying themselves cheaper treatment. Under the ACA, these problems are not solved in the slightest, and in fact are made worse because now (A) everyone has to get insurance, which is a huge part of what makes the American system so screwed up, and (B) because everyone now has to get insurance, every hypochondriac gets to have hundreds of hugely expensive and largely pointless tests that drive prices way the hell up (this already occurs in the system, by the way). That's actually part of what makes "single payer" and "socialized" systems cheaper than the American system; in America, if you have insurance, the doctors will give you ludicrously expensive, marginally more expensive medicine as well as boatloads of expensive tests with expensive medical equipment, because they don't want to be sued because they didn't recommend every single precaution for every single possible problem, and because the patient isn't paying for it (and thus doesn't care about the cost), the insurance company is. So the insurance company is paying a lot out for these people, so they jack up premiums (the ACA gives these companies a stranglehold on their customers, too, so this isn't going to get any better) to pay for it. Furthermore, because of a wide variety of weird tax benefits and subsidies, American hospitals buy loads of experimental and high-tech equipment that realistically isn't worth the cost, so they increase prices to pay for these as well. So Pittsburgh has more MRI machines than all of Canada, but because Canada actually has some level of rationing we end up with less absurd prices, though we still get a few embarrassments (eg. ~1.5 year wait times for use of certain equipment, especially MRIs).

Actually, I've always wondered why people call America's system "Capitalist" and just about every other country's "Socialist". America's "private sector" involved in healthcare is so heavily intertwined, supported by, and regulated by the government that it really doesn't act like a market in any real sense, whereas several countries with socialized systems have significantly less controlled and more straightforward private systems. An argument could be made that places like Singapore, Japan, and Hong Kong all have systems that are far more "Capitalist" than the one in America.
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Professional Bridge Toll Collector?

Hiiri

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2013, 12:41:00 pm »

Some part of that is true, another is that Capitalism is the best way to industrialize a country.

Not really. Slavery is much more efficient. Stalin made agrarian Russia into industrial powerhouse in 30 years. 'murica used slaves to reap the benefits of fertile land.
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Neonivek

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2013, 12:42:45 pm »

Some part of that is true, another is that Capitalism is the best way to industrialize a country.

Not really. Slavery is much more efficient. Stalin made agrarian Russia into industrial powerhouse in 30 years. 'murica used slaves to reap the benefits of fertile land.

Who ever said Slavery and Capitalism contradict eachother?

In fact WHO THE HECK ever suggested those are incompatible? Hiiri are you working for "The Man"? Since people have spoken about slavery under a capitalist system for a while now.
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Mrhappyface

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2013, 12:44:13 pm »

I wouldn't mind socialism if the nation is culturally and socially homogeneous. It doesn't work so well in an extremely large and heterogeneous. nation.
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Hiiri

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2013, 12:57:46 pm »

Who ever said Slavery and Capitalism contradict eachother?

I do. There's not much "free enterprise" in whips and shackles.
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Neonivek

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2013, 12:58:44 pm »

Who ever said Slavery and Capitalism contradict eachother?

I do. There's not much "free enterprise" in whips and shackles.

If they want to be free they need money. That is the spirit of capitalism.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Let's talk Capitalism.
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2013, 12:59:45 pm »

Who ever said Slavery and Capitalism contradict eachother?

I do. There's not much "free enterprise" in whips and shackles.

Sure there is.  Just not for the people wearing the shackles, because they already lost.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.
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