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[thvaz]

The only reason this article isn't "combative" is because it's too sniveling to say anything outright or back itself up.

The author of the article listed code from the game. You can't really get much more "backed up" than that. But let's face it, you're not mad about the tone of the article. You're mad because you disagree with it.

And you aren't because you agree with it. What is your point?

I sincerely don't see what's click-bait about "the game models the behavior of attraction in some specifically bad ways, maybe that should be addressed"

edit: And, again, the reason most people I know are talking about the article is because the dev proclaiming full on nonsense like that bisexual guys don't exist in real life.

Now you are just out righting lying.

Of course I’m sure bi/bi-curious men exist, but the research and what I’ve seen supports the conclusion that they’re rarer than bi women.

Look, I don't even really like the guy. He usually does some passive-agressive remarks against DF, and everyone should know DF to me is the best thing invented after bread. But there is a lot of unjust assumptions being made here.

[Tiruin]

The game literally programs men and women into different roles.

Backed up by data. What's the issue?

By data that interprets things with the notice that this isn't to be generalized, you mean Yea, there's a difference in roles, but it's not so much a difference that it can be encompassed fully by code.
It MAY apply in the context of a certain region but not of a country or larger scale area.
...And that's probably part the issue. "Men" and "Women" are extremely variant, and thus the communication with it (eg In the article/b y the dev) lead up to how people go about it...when just waiting and letting it develop further is a more reasonable alternative because it's not even a released game yet. As far as I know anyway? It's something still in development, and the dev is doing stuff with it at the moment to reflect things, at the moment.

Hence why I mentioned miscommunication earlier.

The only reason this article isn't "combative" is because it's too sniveling to say anything outright or back itself up.

The author of the article listed code from the game. You can't really get much more "backed up" than that. But let's face it, you're not mad about the tone of the article. You're mad because you disagree with it.

And you aren't because you agree with it. What is your point?

It's a lot better to listen to each other than work with the idea of a theme like 'this is what I get about what they're saying so...maybe this implies that!'.
Leads to a lot less 'This is what you say :I' and stuff about predicting what others say over listening to them.

[thvaz]

The only reason this article isn't "combative" is because it's too sniveling to say anything outright or back itself up.

The author of the article listed code from the game. You can't really get much more "backed up" than that. But let's face it, you're not mad about the tone of the article. You're mad because you disagree with it.

And you aren't because you agree with it. What is your point?

It's a lot better to listen to each other than work with the idea of a theme like 'this is what I get about what they're saying so...maybe this implies that!'.
Leads to a lot less 'This is what you say :I' and stuff about predicting what others say over listening to them.

It is funny how the article's author just did this regarding the developer intentions.

[Scripten]

Backed up by data. What's the issue?

Actually not. None of those sources were peer-reviewed. Moreover, the balance between reinforcing/breaking down the status quo is the point of the article. The game also allows for cannibalism, slavery, and plenty of other morally repugnant situations, but the characters react to them in ways that create a narrative. This particular system is largely invisible and is treated as an absolute, belying the dev's own biases.

Does that mean that he's a terrible person who deserves to burn eternally? Not at all. However, it does highlight how socialization can affect game systems (and many other things) in innocuous but toxic ways.

He never said that. He actually said all of the "bisexual" guys he knows personally later came out as gay, but he's sure bisexual men exist. Maybe stop misrepresenting what he's saying, yeah?

Does this change the fact that no bi men exist in the game?

[sluissa]

The author of the article listed code from the game. You can't really get much more "backed up" than that. But let's face it, you're not mad about the tone of the article. You're mad because you disagree with it.

Important to note that that was "pseudo-code" written by the author, based on the real code. They do state that in the article, but I've seen so many people refer to it as the actual code that it seems like that wasn't made clear enough. None of the words written in the article are actually found in the code verbatim.

I sincerely don't see what's click-bait about "the game models the behavior of attraction in some specifically bad ways, maybe that should be addressed"

edit: And, again, the reason most people I know are talking about the article is because the dev proclaiming full on nonsense like that bisexual guys don't exist in real life.

It's a subject that's going to get a lot of people angry for basically no reason and end up spreading the link around to rant about it on one side or another. That's click-bait.

Did they do the whole, "10 ways doctors don't want you to know about losing weight that this average house-wife found out." thing? No. But they did pick a subject that's well known to be inflammatory and then used language which implied a lot while not actually accusing directly.

And is there really anything wrong with the way it's portrayed in the game?

I mean, it says a lot that other than a few bugs like people going into a depression spiral by repeatedly asking people to date and getting turned down, that nobody really questioned the way things worked until now. It models what we expect relationships to look like fairly well from an abstracted view.

Is it an oversight that there are no bi men? Maybe. But it's also true that there are significantly less bi men than women. Is it an oversight that all women are bi? Maybe, but it's also true that women are much more likely to be open to bisexuality in some manner than men. It is also an early access game though. It's not finished and while some work was put into this part of the game, it's pretty obvious it's not finished.

[Capntastic]

The game literally programs men and women into different roles.

Backed up by data. What's the issue?

edit: And, again, the reason most people I know are talking about the article is because the dev proclaiming full on nonsense like that bisexual guys don't exist in real life.

He never said that. He actually said all of the "bisexual" guys he knows personally later came out as gay, but he's sure bisexual men exist. Maybe stop misrepresenting what he's saying, yeah?

I was going off of how he coded the game, not a specific quote, apologies.

[Aseaheru]

And this is exactly why they needed to have an interview.

[Tiruin]

And this is exactly why they needed to have an interview.

And clarified what they mean by 'edit', yeaaah. (Or how it works and stuff)

[thvaz]

Backed up by data. What's the issue?

Actually not. None of those sources were peer-reviewed. Moreover, the balance between reinforcing/breaking down the status quo is the point of the article. The game also allows for cannibalism, slavery, and plenty of other morally repugnant situations, but the characters react to them in ways that create a narrative. This particular system is largely invisible and is treated as an absolute, belying the dev's own biases.

Does that mean that he's a terrible person who deserves to burn eternally? Not at all. However, it does highlight how socialization can affect game systems (and many other things) in innocuous but toxic ways.

He never said that. He actually said all of the "bisexual" guys he knows personally later came out as gay, but he's sure bisexual men exist. Maybe stop misrepresenting what he's saying, yeah?

Does this change the fact that no bi men exist in the game?

Does the fact that no bi men exists in the game implies that he believes no bi men exists? You surely use a lot of circulus in probando.

[IronyOwl]

The game literally programs men and women into different roles.

And your post is literally defending the article, but a post entitled "How Scripten's Machinations Support The RPS Agenda" would be a clickbait post title. It uses political language to describe something in a curiously specific fashion, with "political bullshit" being the most likely reason.

The author of the article listed code from the game. You can't really get much more "backed up" than that. But let's face it, you're not mad about the tone of the article. You're mad because you disagree with it.

So... what, you think I disagree with RPS' assertion that in Rimworld all women are lesbians? That appears to be the point you are countering here. Followed by open contempt.

Do you actually want to have a conversation with me on this topic, or just point and laugh at another bumbling member of the Wrong Tribe?

I sincerely don't see what's click-bait about "the game models the behavior of attraction in some specifically bad ways, maybe that should be addressed"

"Specifically" being the operative word here. The article's dripping with insinuations that X is bad and Y is wrong and Z is just a really fascinating thing we should give the benefit of the doubt in assuming might be changed any day now but for now we have to judge it as it is and boy it does not look good.

Nowhere does it actually explain why any of this is bad, though, and certainly nowhere does it attempt to remain neutral or levelheaded in describing them. That's not an actual article, and it's not even really an angry rant. It's insinuated sensationalism.

edit: And, again, the reason most people I know are talking about the article is because the dev proclaiming full on nonsense like that bisexual guys don't exist in real life.

What does this have to do with the article, though?

[Capntastic]

I am phoneposting barely anove sentence fragments so lemme formally withdraw until I can get to a keyboard and copy and paste stuff, sorry

[Malus]

Backed up by data. What's the issue?

Actually not. None of those sources were peer-reviewed. Moreover, the balance between reinforcing/breaking down the status quo is the point of the article. The game also allows for cannibalism, slavery, and plenty of other morally repugnant situations, but the characters react to them in ways that create a narrative. This particular system is largely invisible and is treated as an absolute, belying the dev's own biases.

Does that mean that he's a terrible person who deserves to burn eternally? Not at all. However, it does highlight how socialization can affect game systems (and many other things) in innocuous but toxic ways.

Which system do you have an issue with exactly? The "all women are secretly bisexual for attractive enough women" bit? Or the "women are less likely than men to flirt with random people" bit? Or the stereotype that all men like young women and all women like men their age or older? Which one's toxic? Does every game need to aspire to "break down the status quo"? Does a game need to conform to your particular politics, or can it reflect the politics of its creator and still be worth playing and analyzing? The simple fact that Rimworld simulates genders slightly differently is what's allowing us to have this dialogue in the first place: in that way, isn't it helping break down the status quo?

Does this change the fact that no bi men exist in the game?

Do bi men need to exist in every game before it gets your stamp of approval? If so, how far into development can it be before the absence of bi men goes from being a mere oversight to being a "reinforcement of the status quo" and worth criticizing?

[Persus13]

I'm surprised at the backlash against the article itself, since its actually really interesting to read how relationships are coded in a game, and the fact that a developer actually took the time to try and simulate things instead of just setting flat ratios. I wouldn't mind the author outright stating what they'd prefer and a less inflammatory title, but I can't have everything I want in clickbait. Its also a little ridiculous to use the "its a game, not a simulation of reality" argument here given that the dev's been citing research to back up the way things work in the game. At any rate I'm sure there's some sort of mod that comes out of this that makes things more even, so I'll look forward to downloading that.

That said, this is the kind of issue that causes tempers to rise and gets Toady called in, so I'd advise against trying to provoke heated arguments like some of you seem to be deliberately trying to do.

[Scripten]

Sorry for the walls of text. Comment incoming...

Spoiler: "sluissa" (click to show/hide)

Important to note that that was "pseudo-code" written by the author, based on the real code. They do state that in the article, but I've seen so many people refer to it as the actual code that it seems like that wasn't made clear enough. None of the words written in the article are actually found in the code verbatim.

There are different variable names. That being said, the effective result of the functions are identical. (Or would be if psuedocode was executable, which it obviously is not.) The point is that the effect is obvious at cursory glance.

It's a subject that's going to get a lot of people angry for basically no reason and end up spreading the link around to rant about it on one side or another. That's click-bait.

Did they do the whole, "10 ways doctors don't want you to know about losing weight that this average house-wife found out." thing? No. But they did pick a subject that's well known to be inflammatory and then used language which implied a lot while not actually accusing directly.

And if they had outright stated anything that people are assuming they implied, the torches would have burned twice as bright. What really bothers me about these claims that many are making, is that they are actually very much anti-freedom of speech. This article has every right to exist. The author did not, as you stated yourself, hide her intentions behind a vague title, nor did she couch it in a long string of gifs or content cut from other sites. It is an independent work with actual depth that, obviously, makes people talk and think. Wishing it did not exist because of the premise is entirely against the spirit of free speech.

Is it an oversight that there are no bi men? Maybe. But it's also true that there are significantly less bi men than women. Is it an oversight that all women are bi? Maybe, but it's also true that women are much more likely to be open to bisexuality in some manner than men. It is also an early access game though. It's not finished and while some work was put into this part of the game, it's pretty obvious it's not finished.

There's a lot of stigma among Western cultures regarding bi men. They are erased and disbelieved at every turn. Many of them either don't come out at all or "turn gay/straight" to avoid being demonized. There are social constructs behind data, remember that. It's important to take time to unpack them before presenting "hard numbers" as fact.

Spoiler: "thvaz" (click to show/hide)

Does the fact that no bi men exists in the game implies that he believes no bi men exists? You surely use a lot of circulus in probando.

It's okay, you can just use "circular logic". The point isn't necessarily what the dev believes (though he did talk at some length about his anecdotal evidence for disbelieving in bi men) but rather the result of the unconscious bias in the code he wrote. As I said above, there are always biases behind peoples' actions. Interpreting them and working on figuring out whether they support or hinder the well-being of others is important. Even in games.

Spoiler: "IronyOwl" (click to show/hide)

And your post is literally defending the article, but a post entitled "How Scripten's Machinations Support The RPS Agenda" would be a clickbait post title. It uses political language to describe something in a curiously specific fashion, with "political bullshit" being the most likely reason.

Right... do you believe that your hypothetical title is equally as incendiary as the original article. Allow me to remind you that the title was "How RimWorld’s Code Defines Strict Gender Roles". So let's dial back on the hyperbole. Try "How Scripten's Posts Defend RPS' Article on Gender Roles in Rimworld". Or is "gender roles" too political a term for journalism? I really can't see the equivalence here.

Also, you pivoted very skillfully here. Keep in mind that my post was equating "How RimWorld’s Code Defines Strict Gender Roles" with "The game literally programs men and women into different roles". Do you deny the premise or... what, exactly?

So... what, you think I disagree with RPS' assertion that in Rimworld all women are lesbians? That appears to be the point you are countering here. Followed by open contempt.

To be clear, the assertion was that all women are bisexual or gay. Are you disagreeing with that? If so, well... you're wrong. I mean, there's not much more to it.

Do you actually want to have a conversation with me on this topic, or just point and laugh at another bumbling member of the Wrong Tribe?

It would be disingenuous of me to alter your posts. I'm responding to them. Maybe you're taking this a bit more seriously than I. If I've caused you distress, I apologize. That's not the point of what I'm saying. I'm just stating what things look like from this side of the fence. You seem to be angry about the article and wanting it to disappear. I'm interested in the topic and glad it exists. *Shrug*

Spoiler: "Malus" (click to show/hide)

Which system do you have an issue with exactly? The "all women are secretly bisexual for attractive enough women" bit? Or the "women are less likely than men to flirt with random people" bit? Or the stereotype that all men like young women and all women like men their age or older? Which one's toxic? Does every game need to aspire to "break down the status quo"? Does a game need to conform to your particular politics, or can it reflect the politics of its creator and still be worth playing and analyzing? The simple fact that Rimworld simulates genders slightly differently is what's allowing us to have this dialogue in the first place: in that way, isn't it helping break down the status quo?

The "All women are secretly bisexual" one is pretty crummy, but frankly, you should just read the article. Games should aspire to break down the status quo, if they are simulating "reality". Dwarf Fortress does it, in case you're unaware. And it's not like Rimworld doesn't have the capability for LGBT relations already. So it boils down to a conscious choice by the dev, not pure happenstance.

The whole point of the article was to play and analyze the game and the way the status quo is reflected in the code by the dev's unconscious bias. I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to argue here?

Do bi men need to exist in every game before it gets your stamp of approval? If so, how far into development can it be before the absence of bi men goes from being a mere oversight to being a "reinforcement of the status quo" and worth criticizing?

Well, let's see... If the game has the capability for... oh wait, yes, there are bi women. And gay men. Huh. It's almost as if the dev coded in every other configuration but happened to miss one. Examining whether that was due to bias or not was the point of the article and what made it interesting to me and many others.

But yes, I require every game to have a quota of bi men and am totally unreasonable in my expectations. Congratulations, you've destroyed that strawman. Great job.

[Broseph Stalin]

It's wonky and bizarrely specific, but I don't see a reason to get upset about that. Toady's weapon/material system is hideously complex and doesn't work, but nobody's going to argue that angry political bullshit about him denigrating the effectiveness of bronze is kind of understandable.

People got to hot about this, I am 100% on board there. I don't know his politics, I have a conscious decision not to know his politics for the same reason I don't know Toady's politics. A content creators politics are as stupid and uninteresting to me as any other human beings politics. Apart from the obvious difference that metals aren't people materials and their properties are mechanically important. The relative shittieness of bronze determines the way you play a game on a map with an abundance of tin and copper, the fact that men cannot conceive of wanting to touch both lady bits and man parts doesn't make the game play different. Materials are also on the properties of materials and not inserting modern gender roles into the relationships fantastical future setting of your own creation.