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[Meph]

Spending some time reading up on trees and woods, I thought it might be good to share some thought.

But first: Carpenters and Craftsdwarves Shops will always use logs, processed or unprocessed, no difference. I cant take away that tag from logs you get directly from trees.

But here my ideas:
 - Put all trees with specific woods back.
 - Give all woods specific uses.
 - Make a production line for wood processing.

Production line would look like this:
Fell tree => log. => de-bark log => get bark and wood. => refine bark / split wood into timber => build construction/items/further refine timber => make high value constructions/items, with some rare, specific uses for specific wood types, like oak-barrels needed for whiskey production.

Bark can be searched for insects or fungi. Can be chipped into wood chips, for wood pulp or mulch. Bark can make pain-medication, perfume, oils, dyes, fiber, ropes, cork, bowls/ladles/pipes/etc, tannin powder,  resin, poisons, spices, decorations, tar. Depending on bark-type.

These can be used to make: Giant Insects or hives, edible fungi or drinks, fertilizer, paper, tanning powder, which would be required to tan skins, drinks that give no-pain, high value tradegoods like the perfume, tools, poisons for the toxicist, ingredients for the kitchen, tar for flaming weapons and torches. Oil for leather refining. Resin/Sap for glue, amber, ink, (maple) syrup.

Wood can be bamboo, saguaro, palm, hardwood or softwood, depending on tree-type. Bamboo, Saguaro and Palm have limited uses, while hard/softwood can be further refined.

Hard/Softwood are cut into timber planks, 5 from each log. Can be polished and dressed for higher value.  Used as reagent to make items, more then from a log. Can be cut into even more pieces, 10-15, of parquet, only be used for constructions. Make fuel, Oak-barrels needed for whiskey and bourbon, special woods needed for bows or crossbows, (adding low-tech slings to the bowyer, renamed sling-maker, and then a custom workshop to make crossbows and bows). Hardwoods would give more wood, while softwoods give lighter wood, good for containers.

Acorns could be used as seeds for tree-farming, as a kitchen ingredient, ground into flour or used for acorn coffee, a no-sleep drink.

And thats just the surface RL-trees. Same idea can be expanded to the evil and good trees (currently glumprong and feather), to cavern one (giant mushrooms), cavern two (crystal and mineral growths), and cavern 3 three (weird vines and mutated/nether plants).

Yes, it would add more wood types back into the game. Yes, I previously did remove them, with the rational thought behind it that all wood is the same, has the same use, same value, only the name was different. If every wood type has different uses and outcomes, I have no problem getting them back in. It will greatly change embarks.

Oak and Conifer forest => awesome parquet, tanning powder and tar.
Swamp => Willows and Mangroves and Rubber for more interesting things like dye, medicine and poison.
Tropical Palm => Palm oil, dates, but no good wood for constructions.
Desert => Super-lightweight saguaro items, but not good for anything else.
Glacier => Good luck. (Could add magical ice-trees that dont give wood, just for show. )

I dont know how this would work out, but I assume that it will play a bigger role once Toady One releases the next DF version with multitile trees. It might also unbalance tanning quite a bit, because I might add tannin powder as a reagent to that... no more free tanning.

Again, this is just an idea. Brainstorming of the usual suspects is highly welcome.

PS: (edited) It would also mean that your woodcutters wouldnt deforest the entire map, being in danger from ambushes and having 10 random dwarves running around the map collecting logs... it would mean that a small part of a forest would be cut, and after that the biggest amount of time is spend processing this wood, which would also be done by your woodcutters.

A big plus of all this is, that the original carpenter will be untouched by this, so even people that want to completely disregard this wood-processing idea, can do so if they want to.

[Apani]

I'd be positive for that. We're bringing Complicate Wood back in, man!

[vonsch]

How would the traders handle this? I we embark where set (a) of trees exist, but we want something from (b), will we be able to get those through trade?

The idea is fine with me, as long as it doesn't leave us large gaps in what we can and can't do (in the mid to end game) based on local trees.

[Meph]

It would only really affect tanning and paper, as the carpenter works as usual, the rest is optional. Paper is still only one of 4 options for writing material, so thats no problem. Most woods are good for wood-pulp.

Tanning... I dont know how to handle that yet. I'll have to look into different sources of tannin, which can also come from farmable plants, or synthetics. Probably one plant for indoor farms and a reaction at the chemist for another, late-game source. Dont know.

All the rest is optional. You want 15 worksteps and make 10 floor tiles of parquet, 2 dressed timber buckets, some perfume, some glue, a bit of fertilizer, a pot of tar for your trebuchet and 2 torches? Thats fine by me, but at the same time you can just use the same amount of logs for 2 buckets at the carpenter. Thats what it would boil down to. Small amount of trees + large amount of labor = large amount of outcome. All based on RL.

[Billy Jack]

So if I understand correctly, I can take any log and make any standard wood item that we can now.  Or I could take that log and run it through a refining process that would allow it to have many more uses from that one log.

I would still be able to start making beds, tables, chairs, barrels, buckets, bins, etc. right away and when I'm ready to start doing more advanced stuff with them I can.  Palm and oak could still be used to make any of the single reaction items or I can take that log and refine it, possibly eliminating its ability to make a bed, but now providing other uses.

I don't mind implementing a system where we can refine a material for higher value/more efficient uses, but if I wanted to stick to the vanilla-ish uses, I can still do that (regardless of the type of wood it is).

[Varyag]

Tanning... I dont know how to handle that yet. I'll have to look into different sources of tannin, which can also come from farmable plants, or synthetics. Probably one plant for indoor farms and a reaction at the chemist for another, late-game source. Dont know.

Well, the primitive method of tanning a hide involves brains and is fittingly called 'brain tanning'. As a rule of thumb the brain of the animal you took the hide from is enough to tan the entire hide. How you choose to implement that is up to you but i feel that tanning method makes a lot of sense to implement if you're making tanning more complicated.

That way you have the option of either using food (i never was that into cow brain roasts anyway) or tannin from wood to tan all the skins you get for slaughtering an animal.

[Meph]

BillyJack: Yes, you understand correctly.

I tried hard to disable the Carpenter, but I cant even do it. It takes the hardcoded LOG item-type, material doesnt matter. I used trees that use WOOD:PLANT_MAT:FAKE:METAL and USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL:METAL_TEMPLATE... then you get "rough metal logs"... I had slime logs, leather logs... animal parts... doesnt matter... it completely ignores the material and all tags, and just focuses on item-type. Essentially a ANY_LOG token.

So yeah, you would still have your carpenter and all vanilla stuff that comes with it. I just tested a woodcarvers shop that takes 2 planks for 1 item, that works. I can also make 5 parquet tiles from 1 plank (so 1 log = 4 planks = 20 parquet tiles) which can only used in constructions... that works. Yes, parquet walls and fortifications are a thing, but you get the idea.

I already have the tree-farming, I have resin, and the "Cut rough wood into smooth wood" is simply the de-barking. I just have to add more products. All my tests show that everything I said above is completely viable, although I dont know yet how well it will work out with stockpiling and micromanagent.

Varyag: I'll look into that.

[cainiao]

for tanning part, I might add Unreal World as a reference here.

http://unrealworld.wikia.com/wiki/Hideworking

probably using fat as an alternative, just to make sure butcher always give you more hide than fat.

edit: after wiki it, I found more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leather

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Several tanning processes transform hides and skins into leather:

    Vegetable-tanned leather is tanned using tannins and other ingredients found in different vegetable matter, such as tree bark prepared in bark mills, wood, leaves, fruits and roots and other similar sources. It is supple and brown in color, with the exact shade depending on the mix of chemicals and the color of the skin. It is the only form of leather suitable for use in leather carving or stamping. Vegetable-tanned leather is not stable in water; it tends to discolor, so if left to soak and then dry it will shrink and become less supple, and harder. In hot water, it will shrink drastically and partly gelatinize, becoming rigid and eventually brittle. Boiled leather is an example of this, where the leather has been hardened by being immersed in hot water, or in boiled wax or similar substances. Historically, it was occasionally used as armor after hardening, and it has also been used for book binding. Vegetable tanned leathers present unique, recognizable and natural characteristics while respecting the environment, thanks to the heritage of expert craftsman and the use of old traditional recipes, new technologies and natural tannins.[1]
    Chrome-tanned leather, invented in 1858, is tanned using chromium sulfate and other salts of chromium. It is more supple and pliable than vegetable-tanned leather and does not discolor or lose shape as drastically in water as vegetable-tanned. It is also known as wet-blue for its color derived from the chromium. More esoteric colors are possible using chrome tanning.
    Aldehyde-tanned leather is tanned using glutaraldehyde or oxazolidine compounds. This is the leather that most tanners refer to as wet-white leather due to its pale cream or white color. It is the main type of "chrome-free" leather, often seen in automobiles and shoes for infants.
        Formaldehyde tanning (being phased out due to its danger to workers and the sensitivity of many people to formaldehyde) is another method of aldehyde tanning. Brain-tanned leathers fall into this category and are exceptionally water absorbent.
            Brain tanned leathers are made by a labor-intensive process which uses emulsified oils, often those of animal brains. They are known for their exceptional softness and their ability to be washed.
        Chamois leather also falls into the category of aldehyde tanning and, like brain tanning, produces a highly water-absorbent leather. Chamois leather is made by using oils (traditionally cod oil) that oxidize easily to produce the aldehydes that tan the leather to make the fabric the color it is.
        Rose tanned leather is a variation of vegetable oil tanning and brain tanning, where pure rose otto replaces the vegetable oil and emulsified oils. It has been called the most valuable leather on earth, but this is mostly due to the high cost of rose otto and its labor-intensive tanning process.

    Synthetic-tanned leather is tanned using aromatic polymers such as the Novolac or Neradol types (syntans, contraction for synthetic tannins). This leather is white in color and was invented when vegetable tannins were in short supply during the Second World War. Melamine and other amino-functional resins fall into this category as well, and they provide the filling that modern leathers often require. Urea-formaldehyde resins were also used in this tanning method until dissatisfaction about the formation of free formaldehyde was realized.
    Alum-tawed leather is transformed using aluminium salts mixed with a variety of binders and protein sources, such as flour and egg yolk. Alum-tawed leather is technically not tanned, as tannic acid is not used, and the resulting material will revert to rawhide if soaked in water long enough to remove the alum salts. Very light shades of leather are possible using this process, but the resulting material is not as supple as vegetable-tanned leather.[2]
    Rawhide is made by scraping the skin thin, soaking it in lime, and then stretching it while it dries. Like alum-tawing, rawhide is not technically "leather"[citation needed], but is usually lumped in with the other forms. Rawhide is stiffer and more brittle than other forms of leather; it's primarily found in uses such as drum heads and parchment where it does not need to flex significantly; it is also cut up into cords for use in lacing or stitching and for making many varieties of dog chews.

Leather—usually vegetable-tanned—can be oiled to improve its water resistance. This supplements the natural oils remaining in the leather itself, which can be washed out through repeated exposure to water. Frequent oiling of leather, with mink oil, neatsfoot oil, or a similar material keeps it supple and improves its lifespan dramatically.

Leather with the hair still attached is called hair-on.

[Meph]

And know the wiki text and all subsequent links from it. But the unreal-world thing is new.

[Tierre]

Might rethink the word parquet. I don't think a wall made of parquet is really better than a wall made of wicker. But i doubt you can distinguish this material to be only for floors.

[Meph]

Yeah, I cant separate those... I could make one with names intended for walls, and one intended for floors... I really like the idea of parquet floor. If people want to abuse this for walls, thats their choice.

[dukea42]

I like the general ideas of the wood crafting direction (hardwood vs softwood). Not sure if I'm ready for more leather complexity on top of what it already takes for lamellar.

One possible suggestion... Never understood why 1 wood bundle (a whole tree) would produce either 1 ash OR 1 charcoal. Can you make that an AND?  I'm fairly certain there's enough ash for lye out of processing a whole tree to charcoal.

[Meph]

Thats possible. I already did that to coal, when you make fuel you get fuel and ash.

[Nevets_]

Really like this idea, I was always upset that it took an entire tree to make one barrel, or a handful of ash.

A couple ideas:

I think it would be more intuitive if each type of tree gave you only 1 bonus resource (including the underground trees) and each one was unique.  So Spore tree bark can be pressed into glue, oak bark can be used to make tannin, fungiwood bark can be cooked to be edible, etc.

Processing tree saplings in the sawmill could combine the processing and debarking steps, which would let you have the bark and planks in a different ratio than debarking a 'wild' tree.  I've always assumed that farmed trees are smaller than the naturally grown ones, so I would think you'd get less wood from them.  This would be balanced out by getting multiple saplings in a single stack with high level farmers.

Instead of parquet, what about calling it paneling?   That works better for walls.

Right now you can make a really nice bed if you have cloth, feathers, etc.  What about other high-end constructions that require nails, hinges, etc.?  You could make a new metal item called 'fittings' that takes just one bar to make, and has a 90% chance to be preserved when it's used in reactions.

[Meph]

Nails and hinges would require metals, so people probably make a metal bed in the first place.

I think it would be more intuitive if each type of tree gave you only 1 bonus resource (including the underground trees) and each one was unique.  So Spore tree bark can be pressed into glue, oak bark can be used to make tannin, fungiwood bark can be cooked to be edible, etc.

Possible, but unrealistic. This is what I do atm in the mod btw. But many RL trees give sap/resin, and just as many give tannin, its just the amount if different between the wood-types.

Question is: Who does this? The Herbalist, or the Woodcutter? Or a "Botanist" ? A new workshop... or should this be added to Sawmill and Herbalists Lab.... mh...

Maybe I do "Oak. Willow. Pine. Palm. Saguaro. Birch. Rubber. Mahogany. Maple."
Oak => Needed for whiskey and such.
Cork Oak => Cork. (no idea for what yet, possible buildmat?)
Willow => No-Pain medicine
Pine => More tar.
Palm => No planks/parquet, gives palm-oil.
Saguaro => No planks/parquet, light.
Birch => Special bark for cloth and rope.
Rubber => Latex. (no idea for what yet, possible poison?)
Mahogany => High-value, gives more planks/parquet.
Maple => Syrup.

All bark => Mulch or Woodchips.
All wood => Woodchips or Coal/Ash.

Woodchips => Wood Pulp => Paper
Mulch => Fertilizer for Fungi.

Notes:

The latex (also called Ipoh in Malay) was traditionally used by hunters to prepare poisoned arrows.