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Author Topic: Sunless Sea: a steampunk survival roguelike RPG in a Victorian Gothic underworld  (Read 40954 times)

Deon

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Thanks for the review Nenjin, you made me decide to buy this gem.
Are you still playing Fallen London by chance? :)
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nenjin

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I am! You can find me as Nenjin.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Deon

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I love what they did with Fallen London in Sunless Sea. I always thought that it would be amazing if there was an adventure game or any other game set in that universe.

I just stare at the Wolfstack docks, click through my possessions and feel such amazing satisfaction :).

Now, is there any kind of online interaction in this game, or is it purely Single Player?
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nenjin

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Purely single player. The only online interaction is that you can synch Sunless Sea to your Fallen London account, and get a couple in-game perks for doing so. Other than that, nadda.

I do think they did a great job bringing FL to a different format. My love of the game....kinda goes back and forth, as it has the same issue that FL does: once you've read a storylet, you've read it. Subsequent readings tend to become click-throughs. And they saddled themselves with some limitations because of Fallen London....for example, I believe the way they do content is they create it in Storynexus then import it into the game.

Still, a great title and one I've yet to feel like I've plumbed the depths of even after, like I said, 70 hours. I still want to do a "Mr. Eaten" playthrough, in addition to a full real playthrough. If you don't know who or what Mr. Eaten is, you'll find out in FL soon enough.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 03:12:44 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

nenjin

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So I finally took the Diamond update for a quick spin around the Zee.

Lots of mechanical changes.

Weapons no longer give you an Irons score, they just do their damage, and the damage variance shrinks the higher your Irons score is. Functionally, every one took a bit of a damage nerf since Irons no longer adds to weapon top damage. But I read on the forums guns can pretty much go anywhere now? Which increases your range of armament combinations. Harpoons plus Torpedos? Why not?

Terror has been mucked with again, trending back up. Terror gain is a little faster in the dark with your lights on. But when you're maxing out your Terror gain, it's noticeably higher. I left FL on this run with 0 Terror. Did a fair amount of running dark to avoid all fights. Couple events, yadda yadda...27 Terror when I made port in FL again. So, not too bad. Some weather like fog banks max out your Terror gain while you're in them, so there is the potential for more instances of unplanned, excessive Terror. I'm ok with it, personally, Terror was starting to lose its teeth. I've also read that Terror gain in the Northern most part of the map is higher than elsewhere on the map, which if true is pretty cool.

Re: Weather. There's a couple different varieties, only one of which I've seen which are fog banks. They reduce everyone's visibility and ratchet up the Terror gain. There's also Snow in the North, which reputedly slows your ship down. I've read vague accounts of the other kinds. The fog does look lovely though, and weather seems turned out to be a bit better than the brief patch notes made it out to be. It's pretty random how and when it occurs though. I had a fog cloud sitting on top of Mutton Island when I stopped by.

You can sail past the edge of the map now, and there's some qualities or traits that go along with it, but otherwise it's pretty much guaranteed bad news.

Combat is dicier now, as is being sneaky. Enemies are much more alert. The basic trend seems to be that if they catch even a whiff of your lights, they're coming at you. Based on range and heading, turning off your lights can still throw them off the trail, but in the event of a head-on meeting, you sort of inevitably end up in combat without a lot of immediate evasive maneuvers. That said, if you happen to see them before they see you, flip off your lights and get behind them, it's still very possible to sneak up on them completely unawares. The big change seems to be you have to respect that vision cone of their's a lot more. It kinda sucked for wide screen, actually. Dudes that are coming from the North seem to have an advantage in spotting your lights than the guys coming E/W/S. I didn't engage in any real combat for the time I played, so I didn't see all the fancy new attacks, death animations and what not.

A change I can't verify but I feel is...my Maenid-class Frigate with the Serpentine feels way zippier than the last time I played. Thing hauls ass now. People on the forums are sort of harping on turning speed and stuff, but my ship seems to handle like a dream. Except in reverse, which is so slow now it is almost useless in a combat situation.

All in all, nice update, seems to have added a degree of difficulty that was starting to ebb after the combat overhaul. Not sure if I'm going to dive into this update, or just wait for the full release. Lots of storylets I still haven't played.

One point someone brought up on the forums that I feel is worth mentioning....every update tends to make the game a little harder on new players. Every new feature, while cool and adding to the game, usually adds to the challenges facing people. In a sense the game is dev'd toward people in the know rather than the completely fresh, sort of like FL I think. Almost everything in the last half of the thread still holds true for the game and how to manage it. On first glance one might be tempted to see the game as a casual offering, but it does require a bit of thought and planning, and paying attention to resources, to not get frustrated, until you get into the rhythm of things.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 02:20:28 am by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Majestic7

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I haven't had the time to test the new version, but if backpedaling is slower, it sounds like the monsters will eat you. Especially at the beginning of the game.
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Yolan

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Really looks nice! Do you think I should jump and purchase it now, or hold off a few months?
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I'm making a game called "Innkeep!", where you run an inn set in a low-fantasy world and try to lighten your guests pockets. Forum topic here.

nenjin

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Really depends on how bad you want it. What's really missing at this point are the stories for some places, I'd say on the order of 15% to 20%, and it feels like mostly 'end game' content, although that term can be misleading in SS.

Failbetter Games are always works in progress, so, there'll be more stories coming after release too. I think it's been playable for a long time now. Balance continues to shift around like the surface of the Zee, and I expect that to continue. The bugs are minor and mostly gone at this point.

Like I said...I've put 80 hours into the game between 3 Captains and I can't say I've seen it all by half. By the time they call it released I'll probably call it 90% done, and that's more than enough. So yeah, I'd say come down to the 'Neath and get a gander.

---

So after a few good hours playing Diamond....I don't think, for my play style, things have really changed that much. Guys definitely are more perceptive now, but at 60 Veils, I've gotten a pretty good sense of how to stay out of their radar. Have hunted several Lifebergs without problems. I just eat the Terror for turning off your lights, that's my basic strategy. As soon as your combat bar pops up, turn off your lights, steer away from their heading, and you're good. You can still slip away too even if you've been spotted, as long as you a) turn off your lights and b) get out of their frontal vision arc, which is appreciably longer than the lamp their ship casts. Enemies are a little less clear where their front is, sometimes. Snow is a bitch, it like halves your speed and your waste tons of fuel.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 05:42:48 am by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

ChairmanPoo

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... can anyone provide points in getting started?
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Everyone sucks at everything. Until they don't. Not sucking is a product of time invested.

nenjin

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Starting out in SS can be really difficult due to a lack of money.

And the only way to really get money is to explore, which requires money.

It's a little bit of a catch-22 but it's not insurmountable.

So first thing you want to do is get provisions. This is where the cost part of every trip begins.

Here's the order of importance for supplies, at least in the early game: fuel is god, supplies are jesus and crew is everything else. Pay very close attention to fuel consumption rates as you play to get a sense of how much doing what or going where will cost you. This math is incredibly important to getting ahead in Sunless Sea. If you're not paying attention to fuel and estimating how much you need to go where, you're either going to end up stranded or be perpetually broke until you get lucky. I always try to make it back to Fallen London with a barrel or two to spare. And remember, calculate everything needed as a round trip. Every trip begins and ends in Fallen London because it's where provisioning costs you the least on average, among all the other things you can do there.

Supplies will diminish appreciably slower than Fuel until you buy a bigger ship and have more than 10 crew. So you can go easier on supplies but don't forget them because events can still change how many you're carrying. Supplies are also generally easier to get/a more common reward. Hunting is a good way to supplement your supplies if you feel comfortable with combat. Most beasts yield supplies as loot. (Teehee.) Starting out Zee Bats are plentiful and easy to kill, so they're a nice way to save on Supply costs. Do note though, as long as the game is unpaused, you're consuming Supplies. So if you're going to sit there at port zoning out with the Gazetteer closed, pause the game. You don't consume fuel while at port and your ship is stopped. You also don't consume Fuel while you've got the throttle set to 0. But Supplies are always ticking down.

Crew by and large is the thing you need to worry the least about, until you're running at 50% of your crew or less. They can die in combat, but only if things are going really far south. Events will either take them from you or offer them to you, so their numbers move a little bit back and forth constantly. And they're easy to replace in FL for a pretty reasonable cost.

Once I'm provisioned (10 to 12 Fuel, 8 to 10 Supplies is a good starting amount for any short trip) I usually start by hugging the coast North and South of Fallen London. There are a few ports to the North that are always there. Ports to the South are fewer and far between.

From there you zail to the East between islands and visible light buoys. When you find a new island with a port, stop and see if it has a port report. Starting out those are going to be your most reliable, predictable and repeatable source of income. Always remember to visit the Admirality and turn in your port reports after every trip, because you can only have one of each at time. (Delivering a new port report for the first time also earns you the Admirality's Favor, which can be used to get high quality repairs done on your ship in FL for really cheap. A very nice way to cut back on costs and make some money.)

Ask the Admirality if there's anything special they need. These are fairly high paying Strategic Information requests. The first one is always to the same place, but after that there's an assortment of places they can ask you to go. Generally, at least before release, the Admirality only really asks you to go places that fall in the middle/upper north of the map. Starting out these are basically just requests for additional port reports from specific places, and they should serve as your starting point for planning trips because doing these will make you the most money, usually. You always get Admirality's favor for turning these in too.

So once you've done some exploring and revealed some ports, you start looking at how to do "profit runs." This is basically plotting a course to visit as many ports as your fuel will allow. Between the port reports, strategic information requests, storylets with rewards and just random luck, you can start making a profit. It takes time though and if you're playing hardcore, exploration can very well cost you your life.

When it comes to profit, it's about quantity, not quality. Big pay offs start happening around the middle of your zailing career. So starting out, it's about finding as many sources of profit to offset your costs, like I said above. Eventually you'll stumble on some big paydays that will put you comfortably in the green. Until then though, you have to make lots of little trips within the range your fuel allows, and sometimes those won't turn a profit. Exploration costs money, it's as simple as that. So don't leave yourself stuck between a rock and a hard place by just zailing out into the great unknown. There's a good chance it will cost you far more than it will make you.

Once you've explored enough to start doing routes, the process goes a little like this: a profit route is a route between areas of safety and ports that forms a full circuit taking you back to FL. You maximize your potential profit by ONLY hitting ports that a) offer a port report b) have a strategic information request and/or c) have storylets that can be profitable. You minimize your terror gain by zailing a smart course between landmarks, you minimize your fuel loss by not doubling back or taking inefficient, long routes around islands. You allot for buying fuel somewhere on the trip if you need it (Mount Palmerston is usually where I would do this, depending on where it shows up.)

You will tempted to buy trade objects really cheap and try to sell them somewhere else for a profit. Don't do it. The amounts you need to carry of pretty much anything to turn on a profit on them are ludicrously high, and beyond the capacity of the starting ship. There are specific storylets that propose trade ventures, those can make money. But the game is pretty much designed to not reward buying a bunch of one thing somewhere and selling it somewhere else. The profit margins are so thin it makes it not worth the effort or tying up your money.

Short trips rarely make money in SS. It's designed that way. Long trips and as many income sources as possible, over repeated trips, is where money gets made. (Until you find the high paying storylets.) For new players, this has always been sort of a catch-22, and you just have to get lucky/savescum sometimes to break out of the newbie game. There was a time a trip to Mutton Island (an island really close to Fallen London) could yield a reasonably big profit for the effort because of a certain storylet showing up often, but now it's very, very rare. So best money is usually made by doing as much stuff as intelligently as you can with the information you have available. (Sounds pretty straightforward when you say it like that :P)

I'd avoid combat with anything but the pirate steamers outside of London, until you are comfortable with combat. Killing beasts will usually give you food. Something worth money coming from them is much rarer until you're fighting much harder monsters. Actual ships usually yield a trade item or something that you can sell for a small profit, or fuel and supplies. Sometimes both. If guys are chasing you and you really don't want to fight, turn off your lights and stay out of their frontal vision arc. It will cost you some terror points but it beats getting sunk.

Oh, FAIR WARNING on the Blind Bruiser. Do NOT take their help until you feel confident about zailing to and surviving in the middle of the map. Blind Bruiser requests will always, always take you at least half way across the map, and for starting players that can seriously screw you over. It also signs you up for a life of crime, so, consider if you want to deal with that or not.

Only other thing I'll give advice on is terror management. As long as you're within the light of a buoy, or near the edge of a landmass or island, you won't gain terror. The minute you leave either of those two things, it starts going up. So avoid zailing over open waters when it can be helped. Less terror = more money for you. After a certain point island hopping will only get you so far and you'll have to take a gamble on the open waters. In that situation, always try to zail between light buoys (which are pretty liberally scattered over the zee.) If you go light buoy to light buoy, you are almost guaranteed to find an island or port at some point. If you have found your last light buoy and now you're just zailing in the dark, chances are you should probably turn around. An entire screen filled with nothingness in SS is not something you really want to see. This ultimately is about how you plot your course, which is the basis of creating a profit run based on how your map comes together.

Lastly, if you do lose your captain, you can always pass something on to your next character. Some players get a little cheesy with it and make a captain or two to die so they can buff their real captain's stats a little. So sometimes failing at the start can actually give you a little boost. The stuff you can pass on to your next character only gets better as your current character gets more successful and sees and does more storylets. And, of course, you can always get a few more helpful perks by making a Fallen London character and tying your game to that. That'd be a full time job though, playing Fallen London and Sunless Sea at the same time.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 07:34:33 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

ChairmanPoo

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I'm getting a good run. Got lucky with one of the first missions and got 200 echos, which allowed me to kickstart a sphynx stone importing enterprise. Which allowed me to explore quite a bit and figure out certain port runs which result in nice profits and free fuels. I also got a decent cannon so even if worse comes to worst, I can leave that as an inheritane for my next char.

The blind bruiser... my biggest problem has been with mission  #2, I got a nonstandard gameover with a former character because of it. :(
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umiman

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I wish I could pack more guns on my dreadnought other than just two cannons. Hell, I wish it had more cargo space in general. I want to buy a freighter with 5000 cargo space and 15 cannon slots.

LoSboccacc

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Is it as grindy as they say?
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Sonlirain

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Grindy and very luck based unless you wiki everything possible and even then the money i seemed to gain in my game was pretty paltry compared to upgrade prices even with money making events taking place.

For example yesterday i had an exeptional run and had 750 echo after sellig all baubles in london... that money allowed me to not only finance my next expedition but also upgrade me... engine... to the next cheapest one. And mind you i had half of the map (slightely above half actually) explored at this point and that was the first (and only if not count the deck guns that are all amazingly feeble).
better yet my newest trip was less than succesful as i returned to london with less money than i started out (began last trip with 250 echos i spent on fuel and suplies but after making a round that included most islands on the first 3 'sectors" i returned to port and only had 285 echo So yeah even with milking the admirality for the last drop of fuel the income is pretty damn RNG based. Will you get lucky? Who knows but long voyages are the only way to at least end up even.

Also i'm not even close to upgrading the starter ship as the closest ship i'd call an upgrade is for 5000 echo... and that's kinda a lot.
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Majestic7

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Trading doesn't really get you money; playing through stories on islands does. Usually they open an option for further beneficial trading. For example (trying to avoid spoilers), playing through the Island of Cats storyline lets you buy decadent contraband every time you go there later. This contraband earns you 650 - 1000 echoes depending on where you sell it. You can further sell sunlight on the same island for 400 per box. Acquiring sunlight is free sans travel expenses. Likewise, you can get good engines and guns through officer storylines. Once you can kill stuff, pirates give you fuel and monsters supplies. Unfortunately boarding enemies is no longer a reasonable option as it used to be. All weapons sink enemy ships before depleting the crew.

Other nice way to make money is to go explore the mangrove jungles with sufficient candles; you get one captivating treasure (worth 1k at the university) or a handful of solace fruit (worth 500 or so depending on the number and where you sell) at the end of an exploration run.

Usually I just make note of these things and put them as part of my travel plan while doing other things. As a result I'm making constant surplus of money while exploring and doing more story stuff. (I'm aiming for Song of the Zee and need to get 77 secrets for that..) 

Edit: Oh and you can sell stories in the university and a few other places. That is another nice way to make money in the beginning, just explore, earn stories and sell them.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 08:26:43 am by Majestic7 »
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