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[Spitfire]

Though worded like a suggestion, it's none, because it'd be a big change that would break a few systems. It's more wondering why Toady implemented 3d the way he did. I'm going to elaborate on my thoughts and am curious about yours.

In DF, one spacial direction is treaded differently from the others. Tiles on adjacent z-levels are separated by floor tiles, while adjacent tiles in x- and y-direction aren't separated by some kind of 'wall tile'.

An opposing system, without floor tiles, would be: Two levels of a fort are separated by an unmined z-level. Equivalent to how two rooms of a fort are seperated by an unmined row of tiles.

Though trivial at first, this would make fort geometry and constructions easier to understand, because they'd be governed by the same rules in all spatial directions.

Examples in current DF:
Doors inhibit one tile, but floor hatches don't. Thus doors can be blocked by units, floor hatches can't.
Mining reveals the materials of adjacent tiles in x- and y-direction, but not the materials of tiles above and below.
Diagonal movement is possible on one z-level, but not over z-levels.

Spoiler: Diagonal movement example (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

Unit can travel from 1 to 2:

####
1+##
##+2
####


(Flying) unit can't travel from 3 to 4:

z+1
####
3+##
####

z
####
##+4
####


Even though side view suggests identical geometry:

    ####
z+1 3+##
z   ##+4
    ####


Legend:
# Wall
+ Floor


This came to mind while thinking about 3d mineral veins. How are we going to follow an ore vein across z-levels, when the materials above and below aren't revealed. I'd like for something that looks as follows:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[smjjames]

I'm sure Toady One would figure out something. Probably end up being some kind of visual cue, or maybe mining will reveal the tile above and below you? Though I can see some problems arising from that.

The same problem applies to the ceiling because you can't see it.

[Kerbalrocketry]

I think it's because of the conversion from the old 2D version (just X and Y axis) to the 3D.
So to make things less confusing for old players he had Z levels be in two parts; 'floor' and 'wall' layers.

[Emily Murkpaddled]

Although this would standardize some systems, what is the justification for doing so for some of those systems? I think an equal argument could be made for a change contrary to what you suggest; the dwarf mining out a tile in front of herself can see the tile revealed in front and to either side, and above and below, but the diagonal tiles on the same z-level shouldn't really be revealed under a strict tile-based interpretation. If our dwarfs are really mining out cubes, those diagonal tiles on the same z-level should not be revealed, just as those diagonals above and below are currently not revealed.

You can say, 'standardize in the direction that the above-and-below are also revealed,' but someone else could say 'standardize along the basis of in-world logic,' and argue fewer tiles should be revealed than the status-quo. A mechanics-based interpretation might go along with you, but there are arguments of some merit to be made for the status quo as well as an antipodal 'reveal less' approach besides.

[Draco18s]

This came to mind while thinking about 3d mineral veins. How are we going to follow an ore vein across z-levels, when the materials above and below aren't revealed. I'd like for something that looks as follows:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

3D mineral veins already exist, actually.  Or did.

This occurred in 0.28 (40d) and how it spawns has been revamped since then (due to the addition of other underground features) but the code is still there.

As for when I found it and was trying to follow veins, I rapidly figured out that when I lost it, it had gone down a z-level (or up, as I quickly figured out it was a radial burst, so depending on which direction I was digging relative to the center point I knew if I had to go up or down).

[Meph]

What tileset is this? It looks like phoebus, but the 'FE' on the hematite veins is unknown to me.

[Draco18s]

What tileset is this? It looks like phoebus, but the 'FE' on the hematite veins is unknown to me.

Looks like it might be hermano.

[Spitfire]

the dwarf mining out a tile in front of herself can see the tile revealed in front and to either side, and above and below, but the diagonal tiles on the same z-level shouldn't really be revealed under a strict tile-based interpretation.

This system sounds great, even more to my liking than my mock-up.

3D mineral veins already exist, actually.  Or did.

Mh, the 40d wiki says:

Veins and clusters do not jump z-levels, except by coincidence - a vein or cluster is limited to one z-level, but that doesn't mean the same stone can't be found above or below as well if the conditions (the surrounding stone) are right.

What tileset is this? It looks like phoebus, but the 'FE' on the hematite veins is unknown to me.

It is Phoebus, back in 31.18.

[Draco18s]

3D mineral veins already exist, actually.  Or did.

Mh, the 40d wiki says:

Veins and clusters do not jump z-levels, except by coincidence - a vein or cluster is limited to one z-level, but that doesn't mean the same stone can't be found above or below as well if the conditions (the surrounding stone) are right.

You should have taken a look at the link I provided.

It was not coincidence.

It was, however, a very specific ore.

[Spitfire]

3D mineral veins already exist, actually.  Or did.

Mh, the 40d wiki says:

Veins and clusters do not jump z-levels, except by coincidence - a vein or cluster is limited to one z-level, but that doesn't mean the same stone can't be found above or below as well if the conditions (the surrounding stone) are right.

You should have taken a look at the link I provided.

It was not coincidence.

It was, however, a very specific ore.

Ah, now I get it. Sorry, I have no experience playing ASCII, so I missed that. Yes you are right, those are clearly 3d veins.

[Draco18s]

Ah, now I get it. Sorry, I have no experience playing ASCII, so I missed that. Yes you are right, those are clearly 3d veins.

My first discovery screenshots were originally dismissed because I'd been mining through microline (and a lot of the ore had been hauled away).  So I'd had to recreate the world and exported the world for the map archive and the wiki.

Anyway, like I said, the code is there to handle those kinds of veins, it just isn't being used for copper, iron, etc.