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[dennislp3]

The laws in place to stop those activities are there because all three can do... harm to another

How can you not understand that this is exactly the reason anti-consumer laws are there? They are there to protect your interests.

If there were no laws the corporations would take as much as they could from you while giving you as little as they could. They're not humanitarian organizations.

Early access flies dangerously close to breaking these laws and arguably has broken them in several past instances regarding other more dubious early access titles.

I think it really only does that in the case of a game not coming to fruition...which is fine if there was a law protecting that...but buying into early access and then whining that it should be illegal because it was more buggy and unfinished than you thought is your fault and your own problem really...not to mention it will get better in time presumably so you really don't need a government entity holding your hand and telling people to give you your money back because you had a different impression of what it was at the current time vs what it is supposed to become.

[PTTG??]

Y'all better start amplifying your relaxed states right now. The Toad, he don't get mad so often, but when he gets a'swingin' that ban hammer, ain't nobody gonna walk outta that thread but him. *Picks up beat up old guitar, puts on hat, and saunters right out the back door with conservative haste.*

[Puzzlemaker]

Y'all better start amplifying your relaxed states right now. The Toad, he don't get mad so often, but when he gets a'swingin' that ban hammer, ain't nobody gonna walk outta that thread but him. *Picks up beat up old guitar, puts on hat, and saunters right out the back door with conservative haste.*

I agree, lets re-rail this.  OPEN SOURCE SPACE ENGINEERS

AWESOME

[forsaken1111]

How can you not understand that this is exactly the reason anti-consumer laws are there? They are there to protect your interests.

If there were no laws the corporations would take as much as they could from you while giving you as little as they could. They're not humanitarian organizations.

Early access flies dangerously close to breaking these laws and arguably has broken them in several past instances regarding other more dubious early access titles.

This may seem hard to believe but I'm not trying to antagonize you. I am just shocked that you think early access is an acceptable business model.

To be fair to Space Engineers it is probably one of the better examples of an early access title. I don't believe in any way that it's a scam or anything like that. But that doesn't excuse early access as a business model in my mind.

I do understand what you are saying, I just protest your statement that it is analogous to drunk driving or other criminal behavior.

How would you define a completed game? Is Kerbal Space Program a complete game? Did they exit early access in a manner acceptable to you? It's arguable that KSP is missing several features which were discussed at the beginning of development. A complex resource system for one.

What about Elite Dangerous? No offline play, missing many features. Sure they plan to add them in... what if they don't?

To construct a system of law to protect the consumer from this behavior, you first have to define the success state. Was it okay for stardrive to slap a 1.0 on their current version and release it, calling it done? Stardrive's release state had several bugs, broken features and some encounters that just didn't plain work.

What about X Rebirth? That game was a mess on release and still is today after going though 2.0 and 3.0 're-releases'. Does it get a pass because it didn't have an early access phase so releasing garbage is okay? Isn't that also anti-consumer?

Or are you only focused on cases where someone charged for early access or had a kickstarter campaign and then failed to deliver anything at all? or is it okay if they deliver half the features? 75%? is it okay if it's a bit buggy but playable?

Y'all better start amplifying your relaxed states right now. The Toad, he don't get mad so often, but when he gets a'swingin' that ban hammer, ain't nobody gonna walk outta that thread but him. *Picks up beat up old guitar, puts on hat, and saunters right out the back door with conservative haste.*

Nobody here is upset or anything, we're having a discussion which is very much on topic for this game. I'm not sure anything we've said is 'ban worthy' or why you would even threaten that, but alright. I'll stop, since people are upset.

[dennislp3]

I will say though that open source is an amazing step...a shame so many good but bugged games dont or have not done the same...especially after the devs drop it and move on

[The13thRonin]

Y'all better start amplifying your relaxed states right now. The Toad, he don't get mad so often, but when he gets a'swingin' that ban hammer, ain't nobody gonna walk outta that thread but him. *Picks up beat up old guitar, puts on hat, and saunters right out the back door with conservative haste.*

Nobody here is upset or anything, we're having a discussion which is very much on topic for this game. I'm not sure anything we've said is 'ban worthy' or why you would even threaten that, but alright. I'll stop, since people are upset.

Nobody is upset [to my knowledge]. Some people seem to think that when two opinions meet and don't automatically agree it is harassment or something... As if group-think is something to actually desire and discussion or debate is a bad thing. Ironically the people who do this often forget that backseat moderating is itself frowned upon.

Our discussion however is to be fair probably getting a little away from Space Engineers, so when I get time we can pick up this discussion over the PM system if you'd like. I'd like to address your last points.

Back on-topic: Are there any good guides for this game? It is like impossibly difficult for my old brain to beat the learning curve alone...

[forsaken1111]

I thought our discussion was pretty civil actually. I'm not sure what we did to make people upset.

[PTTG??]

It seemed to be getting pretty personal to me, but hey.

Back to Space Engineers, I'm actually rather interested in the Planetside Engineers aspect. It looks like planets will be awesome. Player-built planetside cities, massive mines, orbital space stations... it all sounds awesome.

[forsaken1111]

It seemed to be getting pretty personal to me, but hey.

Back to Space Engineers, I'm actually rather interested in the Planetside Engineers aspect. It looks like planets will be awesome. Player-built planetside cities, massive mines, orbital space stations... it all sounds awesome.

I'm curious how they're going to work in entire cities when even moderately sized ships have performance issues.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

It seemed to be getting pretty personal to me, but hey.

Back to Space Engineers, I'm actually rather interested in the Planetside Engineers aspect. It looks like planets will be awesome. Player-built planetside cities, massive mines, orbital space stations... it all sounds awesome.

I'm curious how they're going to work in entire cities when even moderately sized ships have performance issues.

Maybe that's why they are allowing modders access to the full source.  So that the community can find areas to streamline performance.

[n9103]

I would assume they'd end up being mostly physics-less.
Taking generalized damage, or even damage per block, but not having any mass/infinite mass.
Physics calculations are one of the most resource-intensive things you can do in a game. (The other being uncompressed high resolution textures. *shrug*)

[forsaken1111]

I would assume they'd end up being mostly physics-less.
Taking generalized damage, or even damage per block, but not having any mass/infinite mass.
Physics calculations are one of the most resource-intensive things you can do in a game. (The other being uncompressed high resolution textures. *shrug*)

That would go against the entire theme space/medieval engineers is pushing though.

[n9103]

Large Size. High Complexity Geometry. High-fidelity Physics.  Pick two.
Barring a greatly increased minimum and recommended requirements, not much of a way around this.

[BurnedToast]

It seemed to be getting pretty personal to me, but hey.

Back to Space Engineers, I'm actually rather interested in the Planetside Engineers aspect. It looks like planets will be awesome. Player-built planetside cities, massive mines, orbital space stations... it all sounds awesome.

I'm curious how they're going to work in entire cities when even moderately sized ships have performance issues.

Maybe that's why they are allowing modders access to the full source.  So that the community can find areas to streamline performance.

Which brings us back around full circle to my earlier point of "we give up, fix it for us"

Maybe I'm just bitter because the last, what, 3 - 2 months of updates have been incredibly lackluster and have broken the game more than improved it and they keep telling us that the good stuff is "coming soon" but it never seems to show up.

Another thing I just considered, there's virtually no server authority on anything (part of the reason there's so many problems like exploding landing gear etc), and pretty much all info about the game (player locations, etc) are sent to every client... that means people can use the source to program a cheat client (that looks like the real client to the server) to do damn near anything and the server will just accept it without complaint.

This will change with the new multiplayer... but that's *months* away.

[Chiefwaffles]

But they aren't giving up. That's the thing.