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[The13thRonin]

I hope the AI isn't as buggy as Space Engineers.

I'm sure it will be while it is in alpha like SE is now. I mean really what an ignorant statement.

Stop being so pissed off Simon... That car we sold you isn't broken... It's just in alpha.

[forsaken1111]

I hope the AI isn't as buggy as Space Engineers.

I'm sure it will be while it is in alpha like SE is now. I mean really what an ignorant statement.

Stop being so pissed off Simon... That car we sold you isn't broken... It's just in alpha.

If you knowingly purchased a car before it was off the assembly line would you complain about the wheels not being attached?

[BurnedToast]

They are working on two games that they are forcing themselves to update every week, plus some unrelated AI project, plus possibly some unannounced third game.

I can't help but think they've just burned themselves out and are basically trying to tactfully say "we give up, fix it for us".

I can't see this ending well. If "code mods" automatically download when you join a server (like current mods) there's no way in hell I'm ever touching multiplayer again, because that's just asking for malicious mods to infect your computer.

Edit: Nevermind, they specifically say you can't upload these mods to the workshop because of security risks.

[Chiefwaffles]

Except for the part where they explicitly stated they will continue to update Space Engineers at the same pace.

[jocan2003]

They also said they will not shrink any of those team should they move to a third game. Sadly i cant seem to find that quote...

[The13thRonin]

I hope the AI isn't as buggy as Space Engineers.

I'm sure it will be while it is in alpha like SE is now. I mean really what an ignorant statement.

Stop being so pissed off Simon... That car we sold you isn't broken... It's just in alpha.

If you knowingly purchased a car before it was off the assembly line would you complain about the wheels not being attached?

There's a good reason they don't sell cars before they're off the assembly line...

I guess it comes down to if you're pro-consumer or pro-corporation.

I for one believe that it's the sellers responsibility to provide a fair product to the consumer and not engage in dubious anti-consumer practices not the consumers job to have to avoid them. And my country regulates against such practices.

[forsaken1111]

There's a good reason they don't sell cars before they're off the assembly line...

I guess it comes down to if you're pro-consumer or pro-corporation.

I for one believe that it's the sellers responsibility to provide a fair product to the consumer and not engage in dubious anti-consumer practices not the consumers job to have to avoid them. And my country regulates against such practices.

You started the car analogy, you can't claim it doesn't fit now. By buying alpha software you are literally walking into a factory and purchasing a car which isn't quite done being designed, let alone built. You're buying a prototype which you know will be missing core features and full of bugs and problems.

You are choosing to purchase a lemon.

These things are made abundantly clear. The space engineers website says on its buy page: "Space Engineers is still in development. Everything in the game is subject to change."

And if that wasn't enough, we have the internet. There are thousands of websites you could research the product on to find out its current state. You cannot go into this purchase uninformed unless you choose to do so. It isn't the seller's responsibility to educate you, it is their responsibility to not mislead you. Nobody can force you to be a smart consumer.

[The13thRonin]

There's a good reason they don't sell cars before they're off the assembly line...

I guess it comes down to if you're pro-consumer or pro-corporation.

I for one believe that it's the sellers responsibility to provide a fair product to the consumer and not engage in dubious anti-consumer practices not the consumers job to have to avoid them. And my country regulates against such practices.

You started the car analogy, you can't claim it doesn't fit now. By buying alpha software you are literally walking into a factory and purchasing a car which isn't quite done being designed, let alone built. You're buying a prototype which you know will be missing core features and full of bugs and problems.

You are choosing to purchase a lemon.

These things are made abundantly clear. The space engineers website says on its buy page: "Space Engineers is still in development. Everything in the game is subject to change."

And if that wasn't enough, we have the internet. There are thousands of websites you could research the product on to find out its current state. You cannot go into this purchase uninformed unless you choose to do so. It isn't the seller's responsibility to educate you, it is their responsibility to not mislead you. Nobody can force you to be a smart consumer.

All of this does not change the fact that in many countries the whole process of early access is anti-consumer at best and borderline illegal or even illegal [depending on whether the game gets made and finished or not] at worst.

There's a reason that games are the only products that you can buy early access... They're still viewed as distractions or kids toys by most of society so generally no-one cares enough to do anything about it. If the automobile industry was attempting early access they would be hit with so many lawsuits that it would immediately rip open a hole in time space and Hitler's mustache and Stalin's mustache would fall out of it and proceed to arm wrestle over who would receive the honor of personally dismantling the automobile industry.

[forsaken1111]

All of this does not change the fact that in many countries the whole process of early access is anti-consumer at best and borderline illegal or even illegal [depending on whether the game gets made and finished or not] at worst.

There's a reason that games are the only products that you can buy early access... They're still viewed as distractions or kids toys by most of society so generally no-one cares enough to do anything about it. If the automobile industry was attempting early access they would be hit with so many lawsuits that it would immediately rip open a hole in time space and Hitler's mustache and Stalin's mustache would fall out of it and proceed to arm wrestle over who would receive the honor of personally dismantling the automobile industry.

So your argument is that we should put laws in place to regulate people's behavior because people can't be trusted to make the correct decision even when they are well informed?

I've heard that argument before, but applied to drug laws. At least there it makes some sense to me, because an addictive drug can actually inhibit your decision making skills and causes a whole host of psychological effects which make you want more of that drug.

It sounds like you want the law to be a buffer between people and bad decision making. I don't think I'd like to live in your world.

[n9103]

Sounds more like he's saying that companies should be held accountable, rather than continuing to allow any early access (including kickstarting!) project to simply walk away if they feel like it, leaving the customer no legal recourse.

I'm not the one to define those responsibilities, but I do agree with the general idea.
Early Access != hobby project, buying an EA game != making a donation.

And cars are sold before they're fully assembled all the time. Hell, before they even start being assembled. Pre-orders by the public and contract orders by dealers. There's a certain number they'll make, but that's in addition to all the ones that have already been sold. If the company fails to deliver the product as described, the customer is entitled to a refund.

Physical analogy not good enough for you?
Lets look at freelance graphic artists then. They get contracted to make assets for a product to a certain standard the company outlines. Artist fails to create these, or creates assets that fall outside the standard, they either wouldn't be paid, or would be liable in court.

Being that I've not seen a single case of an Early access game being sold without being licensed, they are all contracted works.
"as-is" is often thrown in there in an attempt to CTA, but that doesn't mean it's a valid stipulation. If a court decides a reasonable person would expect something, and that something is not provided/done/etc, then the court would find the company liable.
Furthermore, they could be held criminally liable under false advertisement among other things.


But the cost of going to court in the first place generally allows these kind of incidents to happen without legal consequence. So this is all just a fart in the wind.

[The13thRonin]

It sounds like you want the law to be a buffer between people and bad decision making. I don't think I'd like to live in your world.

I don't know what world you're living in but that's pretty much the definition of the law for the rest of us.

If it wasn't then:

Ponzi schemes would be legal.
Drink driving would be legal.
Lighting a bonfire in a public park without taking all the necessary and proper safety measures as well as finding an appropriate area would be legal.
Drugs would be legal...

The list goes on and on and on.

[forsaken1111]

It sounds like you want the law to be a buffer between people and bad decision making. I don't think I'd like to live in your world.

I don't know what world you're living in but that's pretty much the definition of the law on the one that I live on.

Well hell, let's outlaw cake and icecream too. They're bad for you and so eating them is a bad decision right? Only wholesome nutritious food is allowed.

Sounds more like he's saying that companies should be held accountable, rather than continuing to allow any early access (including kickstarting!) project to simply walk away if they feel like it, leaving the customer no legal recourse.

Fair enough, I'd love that to happen to but its not what this discussion was about. The original statement was that buying early access was like buying a broken car, which is simply false. There is some variation to the wording used, but in the case of SE it says pretty clearly that you are buying a product still in development. It's like buying a clay pot before the artist is done making it and then complaining because it's just a wet lump of clay.

[The13thRonin]

It sounds like you want the law to be a buffer between people and bad decision making. I don't think I'd like to live in your world.

I don't know what world you're living in but that's pretty much the definition of the law on the one that I live on.

Well hell, let's outlaw cake and icecream too. They're bad for you and so eating them is a bad decision right? Only wholesome nutritious food is allowed.

In the spirit of being hyperbolic in the other direction let's legalize ponzi schemes, drunk driving and meth...

Laws against anti-consumer practices are there to protect you. They're not something to rail against unless you actually want corporations to mess with you worse than they already are and between day one DLC, overbearing DRM, early access, pre-orders and geo-locking/pricing believe me you are being messed with.

[forsaken1111]

It sounds like you want the law to be a buffer between people and bad decision making. I don't think I'd like to live in your world.

I don't know what world you're living in but that's pretty much the definition of the law on the one that I live on.

Well hell, let's outlaw cake and icecream too. They're bad for you and so eating them is a bad decision right? Only wholesome nutritious food is allowed.

In the spirit of being hyperbolic in the other direction lets legalize ponzi schemes, drunk driving and meth...

Is the world a better place yet?

Surely you don't think they're the same as purchasing an early access game? We can debate this without a strawman I think, but if you insist on using one then I will address it. The laws in place to stop those activities are there because all three can do irrevocable harm to another or, in the case of drugs like meth, can alter your ability to make decisions so badly that you cannot stop your self-destructive tendencies without intervention.

[The13thRonin]

The laws in place to stop those activities are there because all three can do... harm to another

How can you not understand that this is exactly the reason anti-consumer laws are there? They are there to protect your interests.

If there were no laws the corporations would take as much as they could from you while giving you as little as they could. They're not humanitarian organizations.

Early access flies dangerously close to breaking these laws and arguably has broken them in several past instances regarding other more dubious early access titles.

This may seem hard to believe but I'm not trying to antagonize you. I am just shocked that you think early access is an acceptable business model.

To be fair to Space Engineers it is probably one of the better examples of an early access title. I don't believe in any way that it's a scam or anything like that. But that doesn't excuse early access as a business model in my mind.