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Author Topic: Spacegineers... Spengineers... Space-Genners... SPACE ENGINEERS!  (Read 237004 times)

Sergarr

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TheDarkStar

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Re: Spacegineers... Spengineers... Space-Genners... SPACE ENGINEERS!
« Reply #601 on: April 25, 2015, 09:06:41 pm »

10 million dollar, out-of-pocket AI development that they just opened up
Are they serious with that "exponential growth" claim?

That a self-improving system improves exponentially? Yes.

A truly self-improving function would appear to improve exponentially at first, yes. More accurately, it would improve logistically because it would eventually reach some limits.

Of course, there the matter of determining if they make an actual self-improving function.
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Sergarr

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Re: Spacegineers... Spengineers... Space-Genners... SPACE ENGINEERS!
« Reply #602 on: April 25, 2015, 09:09:52 pm »

10 million dollar, out-of-pocket AI development that they just opened up
Are they serious with that "exponential growth" claim?

That a self-improving system improves exponentially? Yes.
Biological ecosystem is a self-improving system, but it sure as hell doesn't improve exponentially.

I don't see why it should even improve exponentially. I mean, what's the reasoning behind it?
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Spacegineers... Spengineers... Space-Genners... SPACE ENGINEERS!
« Reply #603 on: April 25, 2015, 09:13:15 pm »

They aren't factoring limiters such as memory capacity, signal speed, heat, or available power.
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Spacegineers... Spengineers... Space-Genners... SPACE ENGINEERS!
« Reply #604 on: April 25, 2015, 09:26:43 pm »

You could also argue for exponential growth because of the fact that the increase in efficiency is proportional to the efficiency.
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Sergarr

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Re: Spacegineers... Spengineers... Space-Genners... SPACE ENGINEERS!
« Reply #605 on: April 25, 2015, 10:18:06 pm »

The math, though, is where the exponential part comes in.


So, if it takes an AI time n to make its ability to process 2x faster, that would imply that it would then take n/2 time to do another leap by 2x, then n/4, then n/8, and so on. As the time decreases by a factor of 2^n, the speed increases by a factor of 2^n. Hence the exponential.

NinjaEdit: And yes, physical constraints aren't being taken into consideration here.
And this math is patently and obviously wrong, since
1) there's no process which can guarantee the multiplicative increase in power with a fixed investment of thinking and it obviously can't exist, since:
2) there are limits to how much algorithms can be improved. Mathematical limits, not physical. And these limits cannot be circumvented by some "superior" way of thinking.
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Morrigi

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Re: Spacegineers... Spengineers... Space-Genners... SPACE ENGINEERS!
« Reply #606 on: April 25, 2015, 10:48:37 pm »

I hope the AI isn't as buggy as Space Engineers.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Spacegineers... Spengineers... Space-Genners... SPACE ENGINEERS!
« Reply #607 on: April 25, 2015, 11:17:26 pm »

I hope the AI isn't as buggy as Space Engineers.
I'm sure it will be while it is in alpha like SE is now. I mean really what an ignorant statement.
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Reelya

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Re: Spacegineers... Spengineers... Space-Genners... SPACE ENGINEERS!
« Reply #608 on: April 26, 2015, 02:02:42 am »

10 million dollar, out-of-pocket AI development that they just opened up
Are they serious with that "exponential growth" claim?

That a self-improving system improves exponentially? Yes.
Biological ecosystem is a self-improving system, but it sure as hell doesn't improve exponentially.

I don't see why it should even improve exponentially. I mean, what's the reasoning behind it?

Well, a biological system isn't truly self-improving, since it requires generational passage to improve. It's not a particularly apt comparison. It would be better to compare it to... as if you could re-write the structure of your brain to make it better. The math, though, is where the exponential part comes in.


So, if it takes an AI time n to make its ability to process 2x faster, that would imply that it would then take n/2 time to do another leap by 2x, then n/4, then n/8, and so on. As the time decreases by a factor of 2^n, the speed increases by a factor of 2^n. Hence the exponential.

NinjaEdit: And yes, physical constraints aren't being taken into consideration here.
Humans have a lot of physical constraints on the size of our brain that aren't specific to the brain itself. i.e. the amount of energy the body can provide, the size of the skull etc. Obviously artificial systems will scale much differently since they don't have to be constrained to one "box". Distributed computing is a thing.

We already have learning algorithms which have improved a ton of that hardware. For example they use genetic algorithms to fine tune the physical structure of CPUs. Since this optimization code could have run on that same CPU in the first place, that is already a case of a computer using AI techniques to improve itself. So the concept of sufficiently well-programmed computers being able to improve their design isn't pie in the sky, it's already a fact. And it really doesn't need us to make a "conscious" device. The factors that govern a computers facilities are pretty much driven by concrete rules, which regular computers can perfectly well process, and the goals for optimization can definitely be coded in logic too. One advantage of computer-driven design is that computers don't break things down into abstract levels like we do, they deal directly on the level of individual predicates, thus their designs are often things humans would never have thought up, since they cut across levels of abstraction. They can deal with extremely complex mathematical relationships without needing to "abstract" things to understand it.

Here is an example of an antenna for satellite/earth communications. It's machine evolved and a huge advance on existing antennas. By looking at it, it's pretty clear than no human engineer working from basic design principles would come up with this. This kind of thing is basic proof that human design skills have a lot of blind-spots that automated design cuts through.

We'd have to be really arrogant to think that we're anywhere near perfect in e.g. programming computers. We break things down into code that's easy for a human to read. It's clearly far from an efficient use of the computer's processing.

The real question is - can a computer design new software to achieve goals that we tell it to. (i.e. we just specify predicates for the outcome of the program, then another program designs the new software). If we can make this, it can clearly be fed it's own specs and be asked to come up with something better. There might be a counter-argument that the program won't be able to deal with things more complex that it is. But this is bullshit basically. Programs work on datasets, and the datasets can be much bigger and more complex than the actual program itself. i.e. a video player can be a very small application, but can deal with huge data streams.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 02:26:47 am by Reelya »
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n9103

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Re: Spacegineers... Spengineers... Space-Genners... SPACE ENGINEERS!
« Reply #609 on: April 26, 2015, 07:06:39 am »

<eloquently formed informative post>
Have some carrot cake.
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Re: Spacegineers... Spengineers... Space-Genners... SPACE ENGINEERS!
« Reply #612 on: May 14, 2015, 03:09:19 pm »

Thats big news. Cool.

And I just started playing again the other day too. I kinda want to find a good (non-laggy, populated) pvp server to play on w/ some people.
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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Spacegineers... Spengineers... Space-Genners... SPACE ENGINEERS!
« Reply #613 on: May 14, 2015, 03:21:06 pm »

Big news and some novel stuff: http://blog.marekrosa.org/2015/05/space-engineers-full-source-code-access_40.html

That 100,000 fund for Total Conversions is interesting...I wonder if this means that one or two of the Total Conversions will be taken on as additional games, with the creators hired?
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Glloyd

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Re: Spacegineers... Spengineers... Space-Genners... SPACE ENGINEERS!
« Reply #614 on: May 14, 2015, 04:03:56 pm »

Big news and some novel stuff: http://blog.marekrosa.org/2015/05/space-engineers-full-source-code-access_40.html

Fucking starred and watched. Definitely forking that shit when I get some time.
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