Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

Which type is better?

Type 1
Type 2

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: *Poll* Deth Weapon Index, Updated With Invader Armor  (Read 3163 times)

silentdeth

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Let's Play Dwarf Fortress: Mastwork Mod Season 1
*Poll* Deth Weapon Index, Updated With Invader Armor
« on: September 05, 2013, 01:31:13 pm »
With all of the work on the manual and wiki, I've started on a project to provide an at-a-glance weapon rating index. The Deth Index provide a rough rating of weapons based on their relative lethality, with higher being better. Ranged weapons are included in the index, but it only rates their melee attacks, no ranged combat is used. Thus far I have only compiled the Deth Index vs Unarmored opponents. The table will be updated with the invader armored, and armored indices once they are complete.

Picks and other such weapons that use non-combat skills are used with no skill.

Multiple weapons of the same name are denoted by (#) after their name, the number is the order in which they appear in the list/files.

Weapons with the [ADJECTIVE] token have <material> in their name, as a placeholder for the material the weapon is made out of. For instance, a serrated <material> axe made from steel would be a serrated steel axe.

Invader Armored Index Update:

With the invader armored index now complete I need feedback on how it should be presented. Below are two types of indices, in the first the Invader Armored Index is normalized based only on values in its column, the same with the unarmored index. This means a 89 in the unarmored index is not equivalent to an 89 in the armored index. In type 2 both columns are normalized based on the same value, so an 89 in the unarmored index is equivalent to an 89 in the invader armored index.

Pros/cons Type 1:
Pro: Higher resolution for the unarmored index.
Con: Harder to determine rating for different metals.
Pro: It is easier to see how armor affects a given weapon's performance in relation to other weapons, but harder to see how it effects its absolute performance rating. Take a pickfork for example, in type 1 you can clearly see it gains a great deal of rating vs. I.A., 48 points, more than doubling it's rating. In type 2 you only see that is is not much affected by armor, losing only 1 index point.

Pros/cons Type 2:
Con: Lower resolution for the unarmored index.
Pro: You can estimate the rating for different metals using a weighted average. For example a volcanic weapon vs. copper armor is going to be a lot closer to the unarmored index rating than the invader armored index rating, (95*(Unarmored Index) + 5* (Invader Armored Index))/2, using made up numbers.
Pro: It is easier to see how armor affects a given weapon's performance.

The opponents for the Invader Armored Index were given crudcaps and crude breastplates of the same material as the weapons used (steel). These are equivalent to the armor the vast majority of humanoid invaders use. No shields were used as shield blocking does not depend on the type of weapon used.

Spoiler: Type 1 (click to show/hide)

(continued below )
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 10:59:17 pm by silentdeth »
Logged
Let's Play Dwarf Fortress: Masterwork Mod Season 1 | Season 2
Let's Play Kobold Fortress: Masterwork Mod Season 1 | Season 2

silentdeth

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Let's Play Dwarf Fortress: Mastwork Mod Season 1
Re: Deth Weapon Index
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2013, 01:31:31 pm »
Spoiler: Type 2 (click to show/hide)

Margin of error depends on the weapon, and can be as high as 10%. Wielders were given 10 points in fighting and 10 points in their weapon's skill.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 12:16:08 pm by silentdeth »
Logged
Let's Play Dwarf Fortress: Masterwork Mod Season 1 | Season 2
Let's Play Kobold Fortress: Masterwork Mod Season 1 | Season 2

Lottanubs

  • Bay Watcher
  • [DF_JOKE]
    • View Profile
Re: Deth Weapon Index
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2013, 08:44:31 pm »
Commenting so you don't think we're ignoring this post. This is very, very good work and something that I will definitely refer to when equipping my dorfs and adventurers.

By the way, what exactly did you do to extrapolate this data? The "Deth index" seems a mite arbitrary to me. What's the formula behind it?
Logged

silentdeth

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Let's Play Dwarf Fortress: Mastwork Mod Season 1
Re: Deth Weapon Index
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2013, 09:19:26 pm »
How many hits it takes to kill, normalized from 0-100.
Logged
Let's Play Dwarf Fortress: Masterwork Mod Season 1 | Season 2
Let's Play Kobold Fortress: Masterwork Mod Season 1 | Season 2

Torrasque666

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Deth Weapon Index
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2013, 09:31:33 pm »
Why are you not including weapons? Or are you saving that for something else?
Logged
BOOM FOR THE BOOM GOD!
LOOT FOR THE LOOT THRONE!

Quote from: thatkid on June 23, 2011, 06:40:01 pm
You seem to be under the impression that we're playing some game other than dwarf fortress. It doesn't matter how powerful you make a creature, we will find a way to destroy it. God is dead, and Urist killed him.

Gamerlord

  • Bay Watcher
  • Novice GM
    • View Profile
Re: Deth Weapon Index
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2013, 06:47:25 am »
So what materials are you working with?
Logged

dukea42

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Deth Weapon Index
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2013, 07:05:50 am »
Indexices are typically sorted :). What material are you using? Much science has proved the metal important per armor vs weapon type.
Logged
My posts are probably based on Masterwork DF mod

Lottanubs

  • Bay Watcher
  • [DF_JOKE]
    • View Profile
Re: Deth Weapon Index
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2013, 07:14:43 am »
Are these hits to the head? With what material? With what weapon skill?

Don't get us wrong, this is a great chart and an excellent reference. I just want to understand how the data is taken more.
Logged

silentdeth

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Let's Play Dwarf Fortress: Mastwork Mod Season 1
Re: Deth Weapon Index
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2013, 09:17:22 am »
Quote from: Torrasque666 on September 05, 2013, 09:31:33 pm
Why are you not including weapons? Or are you saving that for something else?

huh?

Quote from: Gamerlord on September 06, 2013, 06:47:25 am
So what materials are you working with?

Steel, as it is good for both blunt and edged weapons, in addition to being a good average metal.

Quote from: dukea42 on September 06, 2013, 07:05:50 am
Indexices are typically sorted :). What material are you using? Much science has proved the metal important per armor vs weapon type.

I expect it to be ported over to the wiki when finished, there it can be sorted. At the moment it is sorted by the order in which they appear in the files, to prevent some confusion with duplicate names.

Quote from: Lottanubs on September 06, 2013, 07:14:43 am
Are these hits to the head? With what material? With what weapon skill?

Don't get us wrong, this is a great chart and an excellent reference. I just want to understand how the data is taken more.

Just hits, if the target is still alive to be hit, the hit is counted. Cause of death is irrelevant, regardless if it is caved in skulls or bleeding to death, ect.

Quote from: silentdeth on September 05, 2013, 01:31:13 pm
Wielders were given 10 points in fighting and 10 points in their weapon's skill.
Logged
Let's Play Dwarf Fortress: Masterwork Mod Season 1 | Season 2
Let's Play Kobold Fortress: Masterwork Mod Season 1 | Season 2

dukea42

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Deth Weapon Index
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2013, 05:09:08 pm »
Sounds good. Thanks for the work. These things tend to have much debate, just take that as a good sign.
Logged
My posts are probably based on Masterwork DF mod

Repseki

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Deth Weapon Index
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2013, 05:17:21 pm »
Probably wouldn't hurt to group the weapons by type for ease of comparison. Or maybe by the weapon skill they use.
Logged

silentdeth

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Let's Play Dwarf Fortress: Mastwork Mod Season 1
Re: Deth Weapon Index
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2013, 12:08:08 am »
I'll see about adding the skill after I finish compiling the numbers.
Logged
Let's Play Dwarf Fortress: Masterwork Mod Season 1 | Season 2
Let's Play Kobold Fortress: Masterwork Mod Season 1 | Season 2

Meph

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • worldbicyclist
Re: Deth Weapon Index
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2013, 02:47:50 am »
So you said "hits it takes to kill, normalized from 0-100." is the number... that would make weapons with higher numbers bad, and lower numbers good, is that correct?
Logged
::: ☼Meph Tileset☼ & ☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

silentdeth

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Let's Play Dwarf Fortress: Mastwork Mod Season 1
Re: Deth Weapon Index
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2013, 02:57:42 am »
Quote from: Meph on September 07, 2013, 02:47:50 am
So you said "hits it takes to kill, normalized from 0-100." is the number... that would make weapons with higher numbers bad, and lower numbers good, is that correct?

More math has been done on it such that higher is better, ect.
Logged
Let's Play Dwarf Fortress: Masterwork Mod Season 1 | Season 2
Let's Play Kobold Fortress: Masterwork Mod Season 1 | Season 2

silentdeth

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Let's Play Dwarf Fortress: Mastwork Mod Season 1
Re: Deth Weapon Index
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2013, 04:21:54 am »
updated with invader armor.
Logged
Let's Play Dwarf Fortress: Masterwork Mod Season 1 | Season 2
Let's Play Kobold Fortress: Masterwork Mod Season 1 | Season 2
Pages: [1] 2
« previous next »