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[Superblackcat]

*BOO*


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Did I scare anyone? Did I?

Aww

[notquitethere]

*BOO*

Spoiler: I think we need these guys (click to show/hide)

Everyone should post more. 

I don't think ZU meant us, SBC.
Darvi, Tiruin, you guys got some IC advice for MYLO?

[Imp]

Aww.  SBC never bah boo posted upon his death.  There's not a time limit for that post, is there?

You never answered Tiruin when she asked you to post in the thread, NQT.  Think she'll answer you?


Everyone playing in the thread -  I am working on my answer to here.  I believe I can get it posted tonight before I sleep.

[Tiruin]

You never answered Tiruin when she asked you to post in the thread, NQT.  Think she'll answer you?

O_o
Err, NQT is the scum IC. He's busy being evil somewhere else.

*answers NQT*
*Tiruin = 1, NQT = 0*

*hugs lucky black cat?*

Darvi, Tiruin, you guys got some IC advice for MYLO?

AHA SCUMSLIP! It's LYLO, bro.
I've said what I've said--check back, ensure WHO YOU'RE TARGETING is WHO YOU'RE TARGETING.

But given the ambient silence, let me explain myself given the time left.

While I've either been suspecting Puffin or Imp-the latter falls to the side as towny, given her actions and the essence of her presumable WoTs. The former..well, I was ambivalent--there were minor unclassified tells such as using the FoS instead of a vote on a crucial day like this. Where I'm coming from, the FoS connotates...a lack of assertiveness. While there is a note on Puffy's innocence (that being his..multiple misuse of it, or twice using it in a post, or getting the BM-lock-thingy wrong..) checks out as genuine, the mere idea that using an FoS at this time is...at best, transparent. At worst, a hint of being scum due to the process of communication between voting someone, and sticking that vote on someone.

Given the order of current votes, Pufferfish is whom I'm laying mine on given his reasons under attack on Imp. I've to argue that sometimes his train of logic doesn't have a straightforward acuity (...pre-emptive bandwagon?), or lacking the context behind it after being asked, but in how he forwards the case against Imp (Yes I fully see DS' case. And like I said before..it's lacking in itself. Pretty much due to RL stuff given its brevity) as well as the proceeding follow ups.

Checking on bsnott, there's not much I can say for him other than him being a representative replacement, given how late it was. (And yes, I'm seeing him extending as a null tell. Any good player [Don't 'Any true scotsman' me here] IN A BM would wish to extend and seeing such as a tell would be fallible. Contrary to that, people hop on that thinking; something which I have to disagree with.

The purpose of this is learning. The win/loss is secondary. It's like an unranked match in chess wherein you learn either way until you get into the ranked matches!)

I look at Mr.Zero's work instead. Which said work is to be withheld given the moment at hand but from a skim (unable to link), I don't detect that much discrepancy that makes him stand out as scum.

On Imp, while there are some discrepancies in her notes, something which she's genuinely open to talk about which is more of a null tell given how it reflects character, it becomes a minor town tell in how she proceeds it. Yea, it is a good characteristic to inspect details down to the letter, and even better when you can give it concisely and in full view of mutual understanding, but in how you present it? Mm, I guess you know where I'm heading with Imp.

Timecount?

Day ends in ~25 hours.

Everyone should post more. 

November 15, 2013, 04:20:36 pm

Good job, Tiruin. Post late. Woohoo, you.
Timezones.

Extend until Monday.

[Imp]

One additional Scummy thing that Rolepgeek did (which doesn't say anything about Puff, except that Puff, in his 'careful and unbiased readthrough' didn't see fit to discuss), is where, and stated why, Rolepgeek unvotes at the end of D2.  Bolding is mine.

AND NOW FOR THE IMPORTANT PART DUR DUR DURRR
Since it's a tie, I need to vote someone, to break it at the least. I'm not actually going to vote Imp, since I'm starting to think she has important things to make clear, and I want to give her a chance to cut stuff down so she isn't fucking with my eyes anymore. >.> So I'll vote Superblackcat, as they(genderwhutidunno) look to have been active-lurking for the last long while, without really contributing. Plus, you know, the whole ground that's already been trodden upon stuff with buddy-stabbing.

If this is true, then Rolepgeek 'suddenly' is starting to think I have important things to make clear - that he wants to continue our discussion.  But he doesn't seek an extension (until I challenge him about why not, then he claims he forgot to include the extend) - he doesn't want more time for the conversation - there's more than one way to 'deal with a tie', and the one he chooses is to vote for someone he's not been focused on the entire game, and he does it with a 'grin' and he includes reasons which were proven wrong (buddy stuff, I believe, is reference to my case including Cat and Kleril both being Scum, and possible 'buddy-type' interations between them - a portion of my case that is valid only if they are both Scum - which Kleril was proven not to be - a great reason in Rolepgeek's mind to include that as a reason to vote, -and- to grin about, I presume).

However, Rolepgeek -does- make the claim that he is starting to think I have important things to say, thus he is not voting me.  However, he doesn't ask me anything - the rest of the post that includes what I quote talks about me and Deathsword, but asks nothing of me.  For the rest of that day he asks nothing of me, even with the extension that he belatedly asks for.

On D3, this is Rolepgeek's opening post:

Sad that noone is active at all, at least not yet. I'll ask for an extend, as I need more time to think things through and get my bearings in general, though preliminarily, I think it's extremely suspicious that Imp is still alive. And that neither of the night-kills have been of people he was claiming were scum, for that matter. Seems like he didn't want to prove himself wrong, so he could try to mislynch us.

So Rolepgeek didn't vote for me D2 because he suddenly wanted to hear what I had to say - but he didn't ask me anything more D2 -  but he finds it extremely suspicious that I made it through N2.  He hypothesis a reason:  That I am Scum and that no night kill have been of people I say were Scum (so I don't prove myself wrong).  That's bunk as a possible reason - if I wanted to avoid being proved wrong I'd not have lead the lynch on anyone - let alone Kleril (that proved me wrong), and I wouldn't have wanted to reverse my stance on Cat for any reason (who I initially believed was also superScummy, then later reclassified as such a weak player he was unable to play better, but could not be Scum because he was so weak a player he wouldn't be able to hide it).  And I stated these things, each step of my reasoning.

No, I think Rolepgeek takes his own reason for not wanting me night killed, and twists it to apply to me.  Additionally, having me be alive on D3 gives him 'something to do' D3, a lynch to push that he's pushed all game, and one that he knows ends the game with a Scum win.

Don't rage-quit, just see it through to the end, Imp.

Stupid for him to say, and again, taking his own motives and reaction patterns and applying them to me (inaccurately).  Who had tried to rage-quit this game?  Rolepgeek.  And where's the Scum hunting?  Where's any support for his claimed reason not to vote for me D2?  Absent.

So, I'm ready to move on.

I've sorted through what I could of Tiruin's posts.  I have a conclusion that is not certain.  That's not too surprising, except I really believed there was a real chance that I would be certain.  If it had just been this game, I might be, but I've learned a lot about Tiruin in other ongoing games recently too.  I can't -discuss- this, but I can sure use it myself as far as I know.  Tiruin -may- be Town.  The only Scum I'm sure of right now is Rolepgeek Pufferfish.  I'm perfectly willing to extend further.  My next post will address all the questions that I haven't answered yet.

[Tiruin]

...Minutes away. Good morning Imp!

[Tiruin]

Reply #516
In which I press post instead of preview despite the post being a one-line sentence.

I've sorted through what I could of Tiruin's posts.  I have a conclusion that is not certain.  That's not too surprising, except I really believed there was a real chance that I would be certain.  If it had just been this game, I might be, but I've learned a lot about Tiruin in other ongoing games recently too.  I can't -discuss- this, but I can sure use it myself as far as I know.  Tiruin -may- be Town.  The only Scum I'm sure of right now is Rolepgeek Pufferfish.  I'm perfectly willing to extend further.  My next post will address all the questions that I haven't answered yet.

I believe the bolded part equals you've some conclusion that leans one way or the other, yes? That's the whole case with null-people. They may be town or scum. Saying such, I was -scum- before to you, right?

[Imp]

Reply #516
In which I press post instead of preview despite the post being a one-line sentence.

I've sorted through what I could of Tiruin's posts.  I have a conclusion that is not certain.  That's not too surprising, except I really believed there was a real chance that I would be certain.  If it had just been this game, I might be, but I've learned a lot about Tiruin in other ongoing games recently too.  I can't -discuss- this, but I can sure use it myself as far as I know.  Tiruin -may- be Town.  The only Scum I'm sure of right now is Rolepgeek Pufferfish.  I'm perfectly willing to extend further.  My next post will address all the questions that I haven't answered yet.

I believe the bolded part equals you've some conclusion that leans one way or the other, yes? That's the whole case with null-people. They may be town or scum. Saying such, I was -scum- before to you, right?

Wherein I answer your newest question in my next post, rather than my intended everyone's previous unanswered ones (because it's easiest and I am at work -but those answers and new questions are coming - my big big mental hump was 'what to think about Tiruin'):

Close.  You were 'almost certainly Scum' to me, because of your own actions this game without any consideration of Deathsword's.  You asked me a question earlier about why I was asking you what I was and such - I don't have time to search and find it - but when I get caught up on answers I'll be answering that one properly too -

I have not finished firming my current opinion of you, so I guess calling you a 'null' works for this moment - but my current at this second appraisal of you is on the Scum side of null - thus the 'may be Town' instead of 'may be Scum' or 'null tell'.  I don't know where it will be once I have time and ability to fully concentrate on this thread again (hopefully tonight!  Come on, Imp-mind, focus focus everywhere it needs too!  I know I can do it, it's just been 'hard to' recently)

[zombie urist]

Day extended to Tuesday November 19th 9 PM PST.

Imp - Pufferfish
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish - bsnott, Tiruin, Imp
Tiruin -

Not voting - squill

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Everyone should post more. 

bsnott, Pufferfish, and squill have been prodded.

[Imp]

Tiruin:

Well extending the game.. >_<

Yet - you don't ask for extension.  Either.  No one is asking for an extension.  Sure, with no time left to answer my question - why not, Tiruin?

I..think I did.

My "Why not, Tiruin" was "Why not ask for an extension, Tiruin", reading your posting of not having enough time.  Are you saying that you think you did ask for an extension?

I don't see it.  Not a bolded request; not an unbolded request either.  None the less, I have offered to support an extension request.  If you meant to request one now but didn't; you're supported; good luck getting the third extend needed at this point.

Yeah. I di-
...Well, I did think of it, but then seeing that there was no extension at that time (which I missed now that I see it) I would extend.

...I had thought that nobody was into extending it -I looked at ZU's votecount at the time.

When you say

I..think I did.

What were you saying that you thought you did?

Imp:In that WoT of yours, I see a misplacement of one of my pertinent queries. What you thought of Darvi at the time. [Unless I'm visually impaired and missed it  ]

Nope.  I blatantly and flat out didn't answer it yet.  Your given answer failed to tell me -anything- I needed to hear, and told it to me in a way that failed to tell me if you were -choosing- to fail to answer me satisfactorily or -accidentally- failing to do so.  Far as I was concerned, you could wait for your answer(s) like I was asking everyone else to wait for their answers, and you could bloody well answer me first and meaningfully.

However, there was the chance you completely misunderstood my questions, especially given the life-stress you'd mentioned here and elsewhere.  So I did attempt to clarify my question, provide you with details you might genuinely need in order to decide how and if to answer me, and answer what appeared to be a stuck point for you that you had explained just barely enough about for me to understand your possibly real need for clarification.

We're past that point now.  Here's the answer.

...Imp. I've to cut the spoilers short, but that is as far as I go until I see a flaw in your note here. It appears to me that you discarded your own vote on Darvi when putting up those tables, and...somehow backed up the suspicion on me from that point. What did you see Darvi as, at that time?

Before that point, I saw Darvi as a null-tell who walked away from the game and only looked back once, then kept walking away.  Shame, shame shame, Mr IC.

I also saw him, before that point and given the lack of activity and the way the votes lay, as one of only two possible D2 lynches.  I explained already why I didn't vote for Cat and why I did vote for Darvi.

But you ask, 'What did you see Darvi as, at that time' and give a link.  That link's when I unvote from Darvi and freeze in horror at what your posts and your choices in play appear to mean.  What I saw Darvi as then was the lynch choice of a blatant Scum player, thus I saw Darvi as a certain Town player, and I didn't know what I could possibly do about it - given the inactivity level and inattentiveness of most of my fellow players.

I'm a bit more experienced now.  'Thanks' for that lesson.  What is your reaction to my answer?


This question is about something you said about Bsnott:

He did extend, sure. But this could be in the analysis of motive. Such an act as that vote usually goes onto a 'cheap move'. You win via technical mechanics, if so, and if that is the case, he may have just extended to ensure a better chance of getting into the game
[/spoiler]

So, looking at Bsnott's subsequent behavior - which has been seriously sparse... I don't see an 'attempt to get into the game' or an attempt to learn how to play in what he's doing here.  Do you?  Does that change what you think of his motives/reasoning in placing that extend?

I'm curious on why you regard him as town as so, with what seems to be vague and debatable evidence at best.

I'll discuss that a few posts from now.  I'd like a few more answers from some people first (including yourself).

PFP. I'm a bad IC :/

Hell no you're not - and I'll go to my grave saying that.

I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.

...But this is where I poke Imp. :I

As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

While this borders on respect to the person, Imp, you should see that the query at hand would also in effect be applied to who his replacee would answer--you can't leave a dry lead, dry. While a person is under replacement, shoot all queries at him. The 'asking for replacement' generally means that he's wishing to be replaced BUT UNTIL THE MOD ANNOUNCES HIM BEING REPLACED (or the player replacing in), the asker is generally considered a player until then.

I've already discussed this on this D in answer to Rolepgeek, but I'll highlight it in answer to you, to remind you/invite you to explore further if you wanted to/want to now:

Rolepgeek had been answering questions for many, many, many previous days in an extremely unsatisfactory way.  From saying he actually couldn't answer, to saying he couldn't explain his previous answers, to giving answers which did not actually answer the question asked.  And he did this not once, but over and over and over again.  He gave reasons why - couldn't concentrate, realized he misunderstood, couldn't find anything to support his earlier statements, hadn't caught up on the thread, couldn't find his motivation - and then he also asks for an extension - because of these factors.

So to me, his 'replace me' = 'all the reasons he can't seem to answer questions'.  Fair enough.  Long as that's an issue for you, Rolepgeek, I won't 'ask'.  There's other ways to interact, and other ways to try and trigger motivated and meaningful attention and information exchange and I've got a handful of ways that I'll try first - lets see how that goes.

That was my intention in my interactions with him, and I invite you to reread my posts -both that one where I say "As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything" - which IS ITSELF one of several lures attempting to trigger his interaction and two-way focused conversation with me, as well as the rest of my posts D2 interacting with him.

I strongly believe that you'll find the motivation I claim clearly showing in my posts and reactions to his reactions, because that is the motivation I had then and the reason I posted as I did to him, wording and content.  I continued to treat him as a player - and one I was very closely interacting with.  I agree with the meaning of your admonition, that I need to interact with him - but I think the focus on the exact words and methods I used to try and trigger his interaction (and failure to continue to consider my behavior towards him as he DOES react and I prolong and extend our interaction into the most information exchange I can see a way to) is very poorly focused and only considers 'formal questions', which is only one method of triggering response and information exchange.  I worked -very hard- to interact with Rolepgeek in a meaningful fashion despite his previous many failures to focus and adequately respond to myself and others, -and- I did this despite having found it very distasteful to do so, and having stated that I would prefer someone else to handle the scumhunting in regards to him.

So while I agree with your admonition - I return it with a flat stare.  Reread the interactions (especially the start of D2).  At -no- point do I stop interacting with Rolepgeek, and I offer him -many- tempting things to react to and care about.  And it is done on purpose.  That I -said- I was not going to ask him anything was itself an invitation, and specifically chosen as one of several shaped and chosen to 'effectively question him' - just without using questions.  And when it became clear that he was focused enough to actually meaningfully question - then I did start questioning him.

Sheesh.  "Now I know my A-B-C's" of interrogation/manipulation.

Imp, by far it seems you're giving me the benefit of the doubt--as in, how you regarded my one case back there [Near D2 end]. Am I right in presuming such? Why, either way?

If you want to consider 'giving you the benefit of the doubt' as 'maybe you're really not Scum like you clearly must be because of your blatant pro-Scum actions' - Barely, and it's because of Lylo.  If I'd been that sure of you before Lylo, no, maybe no benefit of the doubt.  At the time, I viewed what you did D2, as a whole, effectively as a Scum claim.  But Lylo's no place or time for misunderstandings.  I wanted to see your view, or what you claimed as your view, and I wanted to drink it deep and sense and feel and know it for it's truth as your view at that time.  It -could- be a misunderstanding, though given that you are not newb I didn't understand how it -could- be a misunderstanding, but again, Lylo.  -Lylo-.  Must attempt to collect more evidence - no no no no no room for error.  However, talk about feeling like a paranoid gun owner, staring at you over my sights, and feeling very sure I was looking at one of the criminals who I sought - one who didn't even care about being subtle in the commission of the crimes.

I read through as I picked out your questions to answer/stuff you'd said I wanted to respond to.  If I missed any questions, happy to have help seeing them.

[Imp]

Hey Squill!

You've certainly gotten the short end of my answers recently.  Sorry about that, and working on coming current now.

You also tend to pick and choose your way through my questions to you.  Here's a couple you've seemed to skip D3:

@Imp: I think it's possible that you are pretending to be upset to appeal to townies. After all, what better way to look like town than, when the game goes poorly, to be the loudest one decrying your fate?

Do you believe I'm trying to look Town by being the loudest one decrying my fate?

Squill, anything you want to talk about?

Here's your 'been waiting' answers:

@Imp: I am not quite sure I follow. What was so imperative(heh) about this question/answer that you needed to put several other things on hold until Tiruin replied? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, could you clarify?

Sorry to leave you confused for so long.  I saw what appeared to me to be multiple clear 'Scum slips' in Tiruin's behavior, and made at a time when it 'could be written off for various innocent reasons' and when 'it really mattered for scum, being immediately before Lylo when extremely few players were active, which increased the power and value to Scum of her actions'.  The value increases then because Scum ploys that fail hurt Scum, those that succeed help.  The end of a day when there is very low activity from most other players is a pretty darn safe time to take such actions.

I thought at the time that I had a real chance of being able to establish to myself with very strong certainty that Tiruin was Scum, because of these choices and difficulty she (I expected) would have in providing an acceptable explanation - one that provided genuine and consistent non-malevolent intentions that I could follow, understand, and view as likely genuine.

At that point I knew myself to be Town, considered bsnott confirmed Town, and knew there were only three unknowns, two of them Scum.  To be able to identify with great certainty even one of those Scum, huge.

If it were possible to verify Tirun's Scumminess, I wanted that done.  I could barely focus on anything else, so tightly did I 'sip the air' for words from her to taste to tell what feel she gave me.  I saw great strategic value in that determination.

@Imp: The only example that comes to mind is bsnott's recent situation. If he was scum, then he just threw away the game.
HOWEVER, something just occurred to me: bsnott can still be scum, but only if you are scum as well.

If Imp is scum, then it is still entirely possible for bsnott to be scum, as that means that bsnott was not preventing scum victory, but assisting it.

The problem comes in when you consider this: If both Imp and bsnott are scum, then this proof falls apart, and becomes a convenient way to declare one scum as town.
I'm really not sure how much clearer I can make this.

This is getting a little bit frustrating. I am not saying that bsnott is definitely town, I'm saying that IN IMP'S SCENARIO SPECIFICALLY, the logic still does not work, UNLESS WE KNOW THAT IMP IS TOWN FOR SURE. We do not, therefore IMP'S CASE IS IN NO WAY THE FINAL WORD ON BSNOTT'S ROLE. I really hope that is clear enough, because I'm getting a little bit tired of this.

Actually, I already, and very specifically, addressed this.  I did so in this spoiler -

Spoiler: proof bsnott and I cannot both be Scum, because if we were, Scum would have won last night (click to show/hide)

If he and I are both Scum, that's great motive for me to try and prove him Town - but a total waste of time if true.  This is how the game would have ended last night, if I and bsnott were both Scum - and it would have been a locked down win.

Shorten votes cancel out extend votes, 1 for 1 basis.

We had 90 minutes to end of game.  I remove my extend request (total now 1) - or even switch it to shorten (total now 0).  Completely preventing any chance for an extend.  bsnott and I both vote for any Town.  Squill logs in - the best he could do is say 'extend', but a shorten from either bsnott or myself cancels it.  Game ends without extend passing - with at best 2 scum votes on any 1 townie, and Squill adding his vote to rolepgeek's - a tie.  Scum victory.  If Squill didn't vote, mislynch and Scum victory.

This does not prove that I a not Scum - but it is proof that bsnott and I together cannot be Scum.

The reason why I made -that- post and addressed that concern, is that I realized that I was wrong when I told bsnott that the game had 90 minutes left - because I mistakenly believed we needed 3 extend votes.  I explain all that in the post that spoiler links from.

But I mean it - I don't currently agree with what Tiruin has talked about as 'generally frowned upon'.  I consider winning when you can win to be entirely appropriate - and drawing out the win when you could end it fast to be 'toying with others'.  I don't actually view this as a 'learning game', as in a 'fake game' or a 'kiddie game'.

I'm playing for keeps.  I won't break the rules - as I understand them.  I won't even bend them much (vague references to games currently in play, which I understand cannot be talked about outside their threads until they have ended... I'm making them.  I'm not -sure- its a rule - it's not written in any list of rules I can find - and I have -no- Mafia experience outside of games not yet ended - but I'm currently in 3 games at once, so I -do- have some [and growing!] Mafia experience.  Crazy hard not to discuss when seems appropriate or useful in another game!).

But I am playing to win.  Not to win a specific way, not to win with beauty or speed (I wanted that, stupid me D1) though I wouldn't refuse such a win.  But I am playing -crazy hard- to win.  And I have been all game, though there's been several hours when the game has appeared impossible not to lose.

If I and either Squill or bsnott were the Scum team - this game would be over with a Scum win and the only possible preventative would have been Tiruin logging in on time when D3 was supposed to end that first time.  If newbie bsnott hadn't found Scum chat yet, I'd have been willing to coach him on what we needed to do to win right there openly in the thread in the final moments of the day if we had to.

Sadly, this cannot be used to 'prove' that I am not Scum, because I have never been given a chance this game to have a clear 'if you are Scum, do this and win' moment by myself - the only player who I believe has is bsnott.  Tiruin's test was not that definitive either, as she could not have created a Scum win with a single quick 'correct' action.  She also claims she wouldn't do this.  Alright.... but I claim I -would-.  And I consider it the polite and reasonable thing to do - manuver until you can end the game with your win - then end it cleanly when you can.  I expect and appreciate this behavior from my opponents as well.

As for a target too high to hit, I mean you are aggressive and thorough in basically every post you make; people do not want to accuse you, because nobody wants to deal with the ensuing scrutiny. As probably the most frequent poster, with the longest posts, nobody wants to spend their time in the game embroiled in conflict with you. Which, if you're a scum, is a very good thing. Do you understand what I am saying?

I do understand you, but I believe you are wrong.  I take a similar stance towards Rolepgeek -  he was so unpleasant that no one wanted to interact with him.

However, many players -do- interact with me.  I've been asked 'I don't want to take the time to count how many' questions this game, and you are one of the very few players this game who has asked me almost none (prior to D3).  Then again, you ask extremely few questions of anyone.  I've gotten hostile interactions, curious interactions, friendly interactions, more-or-less pure Scumhunting interactions - some I instigated, and others started by others.

If you are saying 'Imp you may be acting the way you act because it's a great cover for a Scum (which you are) because no one wants to interact with you because of it' - you are basing your question on what I see to be a great fallacy - that no one wants to interact with me - which hasn't been said by anyone all game and which has happened, both with my starting it and others starting it, this entire game.  We are.... playing Mafia.... which is a game based in part.... on conflict and suspicion.  *blinks*.  Most players are likely playing this game with something close to that understanding, at least that's my understanding.

Does this make sense?
And here's a few other questions I have for you:

I think veiled threats might have been a poor choice of words, but I think you get what I mean. I think that you're the most aggressive player in the game, which is both good and bad. Good because it probably puts pressure on scum, but bad because it intimidates people from voting on you, out of fear that you, as an aggressive player, will turn on them. This is not to say that you are definitely or even probably scum, it's just to say that no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet. So I want to ask you: Do you think that there can be a thing as too aggressive in this game? Do you think that it is possible that, by being very aggressive, to deflect scrutiny by means of intimidation?

Puff has restated Deathsword's case that I am Scum and strongly supports it.  Puff has reviewed what he calls Deathsword's scumhunting of me, and he also has reclassified at least some of what Rolepgeek has said, which he originally called a two-way flame war, as "RPG does put up good points", at least in terms of my D2 vote on him.

What is your interpretation, considering your statement that "no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet"?  Do you consider that serious Scumhunting, or do you consider what Puff has done in presenting his case against me this day to be serious Scumhunting?

How do you define serious Scumhunting, what do you recognize as serious Scumhunting?
When you say:

bad because it intimidates people from voting on you, out of fear that you, as an aggressive player, will turn on them.

Are you considering at all that one vote is almost -never- enough to lynch anyone, especially if players are following the thread?

If I 'turn on someone' - all I can do is type words and place 1 vote.  I can try to be convincing,  I can try anything I please - but if I act wrongly, if I behave counter to reasonable behavior - that is scummy, yes?  There are other players in the game, and each of them has a vote.  If I 'turn on someone' in a way that anyone feels as inappropriate, there are many solutions.  Some involve words, some involve votes.  One person cannot usually lynch anyone, but one person can sure get lynched by behaving wrongly.  It's not possible to turn on 'everyone', is it?  And if that was done, would that not hasten the lynch of that offending and offensive player (well, maybe not in lylo, but certainly before then?)
Day 2 - you initally vote for Darvi, FoS Deathsword, then unvote, stating

But right now, I think I will unvote. With three, potentially four people inactive, I just can't feel comfortable in voting, as I know that I don't have the whole picture, or nearly as much as I should have.

What do you envision or imagine happening, if this game continues to progress as it has been?  Assuming each player's play stays similar to how it's been, the requested replaces just don't appear as the days keep passing, and zombie urist doesn't step in to say 'enough, we are paused' or 'enough, game called on account of rain' - if we're left to muddle around in our own devices and all of us (except maybe you) play as we have been so far - what sorts of choices do you see yourself making?  I'd call your current strategy 'try to wait it out, can't get anything done as is'; is that an accurate assessment, and do you think you'd keep using this strategy as time passes without change?

I was thinking that if nobody is replaced when this extension ends, we should stop delaying and play the damn game.

You also say this about extensions:

I am not extending because RPG, for example, has been requesting replacement for probably over a week and no one has stepped in. Now we need three or four replacements, with no sign of ending. Right now, I'm just voting on my "most likely Scum" pick. This game isn't going anywhere unless there's some really sudden replacements, so I just want to push for the end.

You weren't actually voting then, you didn't vote again the rest of that day.

Why did you decide that 'pushing for the end' was the answer you supported the most?  Were you giving up on your Wincon, at least for the time, were you 'sort of' boycotting the game, or what?

[Imp]

Puff:

To answer:

why you choose to disregard any other information that may support or disprove any part or even the entirety of 'your' case?  Considering that a mistake made in lynching now will end the game with a Scum win, what justification do you see for failing to consider your assumptions and beliefs?

Consider it me trying to get a better read on you.

What a miserable answer, if I understand you correctly.  You are actually saying that you are disregarding my answers and the new information I provide in them -because- you -want me to- -consider it you trying to get a better read on me-?

This is because for you evidence of my Scumminess or Towniness comes from -where- exactly?  The depths of your imagination, and any words I actually say in response to your statements or questions serve only to interfere with the august clarity of your unsullied thoughts?

Balderdash.

Makes me want to ignore what you say.  None the less, I'll address a few choice things.

That theme I'm mentioning? You refer to yourself a lot. I can come up with at least five instances where you infer you are town. At least. And it's happened more and more recently, especially with and around BSnott.

And this is a Scum tell how?

You can find in the thread where I challenge Persus13, end of D1, for having made two statements, one where he said he 'knew before he got his role PM' that the person he replaced was Town, and a -second- and to me vastly more grevious 'misrepresentation' - that -my words- (which emphasized that the newbie lurker was SO newbie and SO lurker that he couldn't be read at all as Scum or Town) had helped convince him that the person he replaced was Town.

I took great offense to that, and I saw that as seriously Scummy.

But refering to yourself as Town?  Depending on circumstances, that's usually reasonable behavior for both Scum and Town - granted Scum are lying.  That's called a Null tell, because you can't tell if it means Scum or Town because of it.

Like asking 'Is the newborn a boy or a girl?' and being answered 'The child was born at six AM.'  Null tells can even have information - but not information that answers 'the' question - alignment.

And when it comes to total volume of words. Imp. Honestly.

How much of this post was really necessary? Or this one? And this one which was complained about?

The first was called the behemoth for good reason, and the second one even had just a single sentence quoted!

Not Scum tells.  And you ask -me- if every word I took the time to write was necessary?  Yes.  Idiot question - maybe you can see this when I ask it back to you  - How much of any of the posts you have written this game 'necessary'?

Also, I must say, calling "holding unreasonable opinions that they refuse to reexamine" lying is quite silly. Because it's not. It's holding an unreasonable opinions that one refuses to reexamine. Which isn't lying. It's holding an opinion that may or may not be wrong.

Hrm.  There are countries in Africa where it is taught that HIV doesn't cause AIDS (nor is it a disease transmitted through body fluids) - they teach that the drugs given to people who have HIV cause AIDS.

On the AIDS theme still - there are places in the world where it is believed that intercourse with a virgin will cure it.

There's people who believe that -they- are allowed to drink and drive - some keep believing it even after their drunk driving causes accidents that kill others.

People who believe -they- are allowed to dump toxic waste whereever they see fit.

That -they- are allowed to speed, because they choose.  -They- are allowed to steal, rape, embezzle, bully - that rules and reality apply to everyone but themselves.

It -is- possible to honestly hold opinions, and to honestly reconsider them or not.  But 'unreasonable opinions' are 'unreasonable' because there is possibly contradictory evidence clearly exposed for consideration.  To refuse to consider this evidence, to refuse to consider the veracity of opinion, thought, belief - to refuse to attempt to verify or disprove - yes that can cross the border between truth and lie.

And what you are doing here appears to have.

And, looking back, you were the main reason Kleril, a vanilla town, was lynched. After he unvoted you. Why did you change your mind about him after he unvoted you?

Because his posts before, after, -and- during contained extreme Scumminess.  Which I explained at the time.

What, do you claim to believe that Scum don't unvote, or are you claiming to believe that if someone unvotes you, you should -not- vote them, regardless of reason?
bsnott:

Play.  Your lurkiness has passed intolerable way back.  You've failed to answer questions from all of us, for all that you've answered a few and not been completely absent.  We need you.  Don't fail us - and if you MUST, ask for a replacement.  But even if you do - play until you are replaced.

You asked to be here.  We need you, no matter what your role is.  To play is to be active and involved.  Play.

[Imp]

Doh.  Meant to include this in above post to Tiruin:

If I were to predict scum movement, I'd say they're taking it easy. Town (and I) are busied by RL and/or, inactivity. Inactivity is a scumplot. When I say that, I mean that they can easily win given:
a. A NK (the factional NightKill)
b. Vote manipulation (manual red-voting at the last second [yea, this is...frowned upon by general honor]) or..abilities--not in a BM.

Tiruin, please discuss 'vote manipulation', preferably as an IC?

Some of the things I am wondering - how widely frowned upon is it on the B12 boards?

One thing that -could- happen even in this BM is that one player could 'disappear' for a time - lets say it's a Town player.  As the clock runs down, lets say the two Scum vote for any one Town, and the two Town vote for someone - doesn't matter if it's a Scum or Town player because that's a tie vote.

The two Town can vote extend - but the two Scum can vote shorten (or even just one of them - as long as there's not two extend votes more than the shorten votes, extend cannot happen).  The two Scum together can 'force' the day to end as scheduled, but of course all -three- Town can force that day to end with the lynch of one of the players forcing the extension to fail - great way to nab Scum... but only if all three players were active.

Maybe my ethics are lacking - but I don't see that as 'bad' or 'wrong' play - I see that as quite legitimate, if risky.  The balance is that all it takes is the slightest bit of attention from the 'missing Townie' and the Scum have sunk themselves - so such things are 'safer' as the day draws closer to its end.

Thoughts such as this were one of the reasons I greatly wanted the day extended out so very, very long ahead of time.  That and going to 90 minutes to the end of day (believing I did at least - I thought we needed 3 extend votes at the time), with the choice of being the lynch with one vote on me, or creating a tie by voting at all.  And why I said that anyone using shorten, without the consensus of at least 3 players (and one of them better be me!) I'd take as a sure Scum tell.

See, I don't see anything more or less 'wrong' about controlling the game through votes and extend/shortens, for Town or Scum, than I do about role claiming (for Town or Scum - Scum clearly have much freedom to roleclaim falsely, and possibly some knowledge to back that lie up).  So why is 'vote manipulation' widely frowned upon, and is it really widely frowned upon, or something that you personally find abhorrent?

[Tiruin]

PFP - Internet dissonance.
Believe it or not (believe it please :/) I'm having a really messy time with the internet here. I can't post WoTs because...it loads forever. Even loading the page here equals generally a few minutes, and even then it only loads...partially. Sans the long time loading a working reply box, I've to address in brevity to..hopefully see this message go through.

Imp

Tiruin, please discuss 'vote manipulation', preferably as an IC?

Err, I've to poke at real experience. Check past BMs..it's when AT THE LAST MOMENT, scum shift their vote onto the target, at LYLO, to get the kill :X

Tbh, I didn't like it. This game ish for learning. That thing just hits wincon, but learns...only dirty tricks. It's frowned on by me, for sure, and I'm unsure on how much me = % of people who doesn't like that kinda tactic, but in a regular game its a SURE 'I'M SCUM AND AHAHAHA TOWN DIE' move and... That doesn't stop anyone from doing it (yeah...) but..ugh. You get it.

Ethics aside, its a technicality that's been.. looked down upon by quite a few people of mention.

@other post before the recent post above this (can you believe I can't quote people? Because I CAN'T DX I don't know why the 'insert quote' link doesn't even load but its..somewhat delayed like loading pages. All tabs wherein I can reply to are the ones I keep saved from yester-yesterday...bluh).

What were you saying that you thought you did?

That I thought I had placed down an extension. Yeah, jumbled thoughts on the matter given how I remember one thing and then say the other but then I really remembered that one thing and..ugh. Bad time for that side of me to show, huh.
..So yeah, I thought I bolded an extend. Then on the similar hand, I also thought that nobody else wanted an extend as nothing else was bolded despite people saying they were inclined towards an extend, which is my fault for not actually doing it in the first place to see if that was a true thing or not..so what I'm saying is that I did want it extended, but then didn't actually extend until someone else did, and focused on ending the day. Scum motive? Sure, yeah. Did I have an intention of making it look like so? No. Player mistake is the best I'd say what I did. And while I'd play it off as irrelevant to the situation now (who is scum >.>), and see that you may see it as a tell, I'd..erh, just say what it is anyways, for posterity.

But you ask, 'What did you see Darvi as, at that time' and give a link.  That link's when I unvote from Darvi and freeze in horror at what your posts and your choices in play appear to mean.  What I saw Darvi as then was the lynch choice of a blatant Scum player, thus I saw Darvi as a certain Town player, and I didn't know what I could possibly do about it - given the inactivity level and inattentiveness of most of my fellow players.

I'm a bit more experienced now.  'Thanks' for that lesson.  What is your reaction to my answer?

In which I fail to append the 'don't answer this because I found why or what you saw Darvi as in the spoiler(?) in my post. It's in where I rationalize you anyways..can't view it on the reply page--it's before the statement to Puff on the locked game and all

« on: November 13, 2013, 02:27:50 pm »

My post before this time of his post.

Point in case, attack the player (is one other option). Diplomacy or not, you've a sure scummy lead no matter how you see it and any reaction would be fine on my point. I..guess its just that I've been too used to aggression that you doing a diplomatic action is a town-tell to me, but I guess its in how you say it rather than the intent here.

Paraphrased from memory on how you see Darvi:
> You see him as a null-town tell, that he's too far from scum, but assuredly 'not' town in the public eye that you used him as..well, 'bait', technically over the luckycat. How I saw it at the time (because the shift from Rolepgeek wasn't considered) was that you..voted Darvi as a last resort-there-must-be-a-lynch today maneuver and was curious on why you unvoted. I rationalized that it was perhaps because of my lack of reasons on the post when I did it.

Spoiler: IC note (click to show/hide)

{And this is why you should give reasons on things like that! I'm playing an unintentional example! Ignore the statement in curved brackets as this is spoilered for a reason}

So I put up the reason on the post before day end.

504504504..sure ISP. Go tell me that when I can renavigate back to the BM correctly yet post thing a couple of times wasting me a fewminutes in order to do that.

[Tiruin]

Addendum: ...Or maybe I may just be putting the time of posting and whatnot at extremes. It does take minutes but is a bit on-and-off at times.

Anyway.

So, looking at Bsnott's subsequent behavior - which has been seriously sparse... I don't see an 'attempt to get into the game' or an attempt to learn how to play in what he's doing here.  Do you?  Does that change what you think of his motives/reasoning in placing that extend?

...Nice going Bsnott :I
Yeah. I don't. However I still stand by my principle that what he did then, is a null tell. I can't in clear mind discard him as town given only that. Sure, you may have another thought there given his....actions now, but then..back then I still see what I do for him now.

Null, and lacking in posts! The redeeming moment for him is..'he extended when the day should've ended in a..lynch', From memory, I remember the votes landing on Imp, right? Yeah, it jives with my town read and I would agree that it'd lead

Spoiler: IC note (click to show/hide)

{I mean, really. Two votes on 'RANT-POST' or severe..unjust technicalities. Squill, Rolepgeek, if you guys aren't scum [on the reason of your paltry votes earlier today], then I hope you learn not to do stupid things like that.

And yes its stupid. Because that's just mean, hitting another player on grounds of such emotional appeal such as that. With the activity of the time-and yeah I agree that my time has been spent rather..askew without factoring personal dishonor here, one has a right to rant about such given the context of THIS WHOLE GAME.}

to such thoughts.

I'm discarding this train of thought as I see it leading to triviality. Bsnott: Post. And state your reason why you're unable to post.

At -no- point do I stop interacting with Rolepgeek, and I offer him -many- tempting things to react to and care about.  And it is done on purpose.

..Yeah, I do get your response, and in no way was my intent structured to poke you against what is tangible here (I did note that you were communicating with him). I was..well, the significant of that paragraph I did was perfectly and only for that quoted statement I quoted.

Did I miss anything towards me?

~~~
~~~
~~~

On the RL references..that's a real nice way you're presenting it. Just chipping in, as what you say is true and that's a nice way of referencing. (I mean yeah, I'd love to argue alongside you there because of personal interests but that's for other times.)
>.>
<.<
Just saying that I like how you do that thing. Then summarize it with a closing line of explanation at the end.

~~~

Oh, and when I said vote manipulation--to expound, I'm tlaking about the phrase we're all told when playing as newbies, 'play to win', meaning achieve your wincondition.
For scum it generally means KILL ALL EVERYONE ELSE//TOWNIES
For town it generally means KILL ALL THOSE WHO OPPOSE PEACE//SCUM//THE TOWN FACTION!
...And what I say as vote manipulation in that quote stands. While it'll disgust me to see people vote switching at the last moments of the day (shall I say that I take it on myself to wake up at irregularly awkward times in the night to ENSURE that? :3 Yeah, you know my secret now.), it is doable. Just saying that I don't like it. For reasons that if such and such happens--and in REGULAR GAMES wherein you [general] (as scum who would plan to do it) have no IDEA what the other people as roles can do, unless a massclaim happened and stuff, you're playing risks.

And even then..ehh, it's a dirty move. Just like playing to technicalities. You'd 'win', yeah, but most wins on forum mafia are along the philosophical win. Everyone's buddy-friends with everyone else outside game, to quote Toaster, but in-game we're like sneakthieves at each other's throats. It's like philosophical debates.
...Then there's below the belt moves..erm, I hope you get my point. It's..like, giving a gist of who you are (despite all of us knowing that whoever does such is an OK person), it's..yeah! That.
^{Cursed lack of terminology describing my words!}