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[Imp]

Pufferfish:

I don't know how far we are into the day but I might need more than the weekend to catch up.

You have all the time you need to catch up - I'll support any requests for extension if there appears to be any need for more time for anyone.  On this forum, weekends are typically considered to be time off - many players do not post at all during the weekends and we are forbidden to consider that lurking - though we're allowed to appreciate it if people want to play during the weekend to.

Day extended to Thursday November 7th 9PM PST

You have an absolute minimum of until then before day ends - At this point I'd consider use of a shorten vote to be proof that someone's Scum (technically, both Scum could vote shorten, all three town could vote extend - and extend would not have enough votes to happen... day would end as scheduled, forcing the lynch of whomever had the most votes at that point - clearly that would need to be someone wanting to shorten and everyone not voting shorten would surely find that easy to agree about.)

I'll add my extend again as well.  I don't think time pressure is anything but distracting right now.  I want people to have as comfortable a time getting caught up and ready to talk this through as possible.  Then I'd like to hear what people have to say, what people think is important and not, and a few other things that I'm not going to discuss now because there's too much else to focus on first, like almost 30 pages of history.

Currently, I'll with-hold any player votes but I will ask to extend.

Imp:

Since you're the most vocal recently, I've been able to read your words a lot more and you sound..... Not so suspicious. This late in the game anyway.

Thanks.  At this point votes actually mean nothing to me - until day ends and the lynch happens, votes don't do anything.  Intentions mean stuff, thoughts and decisions - votes are a tool by which the majority of the players will take their best guess as to how to end this with a Scum lynch at Day end, because that's what Lylo means and we're in Lylo.

If the majority are wrong, game over, Scum win.  If the majority are right, then three of us 5 get to do this all over again D4; only then when the lynch happens then it will be possible to achieve a Town win, if right again about who's Scum.

I'm hoping we've talked it out so far before the end of D3 that we have a pretty clear consensus of who both Scum are.  If we get to D4, there's going to be another Town killed by then too, so then there will be only 2 Townies to think and talk and reason - I'd like every player as fully prepared for D4 as possible (and all agreeing as much as possible, so it doesn't matter which Town dies in the night) before we conclude this day.  Might not be possible, but sure would be useful assuming we can establish who is most likely to be Town, and who is most likely to be Scum - it would make the night kill choice meaningless in terms of affecting the odds of a Town win, because all three Town are on the same page; kill any of the three and the other two are already prepared to finish the game with highest probability of a Town win, at least as determined by us five on D3.

Oh, and about your vote.  Like I said, it doesn't matter to me either way, but if you care, your predecessor was already voting (happens to be for me) when you joined the game - you inherited his vote like everything else he had in the game.  If you don't want your vote placed, you're going to need to type unvote in red to change that.

[Gentlefish]

Imp:

Pufferfish:

I don't know how far we are into the day but I might need more than the weekend to catch up.

You have all the time you need to catch up - I'll support any requests for extension if there appears to be any need for more time for anyone.  On this forum, weekends are typically considered to be time off - many players do not post at all during the weekends and we are forbidden to consider that lurking - though we're allowed to appreciate it if people want to play during the weekend to.

Day extended to Thursday November 7th 9PM PST

You have an absolute minimum of until then before day ends - At this point I'd consider use of a shorten vote to be proof that someone's Scum (technically, both Scum could vote shorten, all three town could vote extend - and extend would not have enough votes to happen... day would end as scheduled, forcing the lynch of whomever had the most votes at that point - clearly that would need to be someone wanting to shorten and everyone not voting shorten would surely find that easy to agree about.)

I'll add my extend again as well.  I don't think time pressure is anything but distracting right now.  I want people to have as comfortable a time getting caught up and ready to talk this through as possible.  Then I'd like to hear what people have to say, what people think is important and not, and a few other things that I'm not going to discuss now because there's too much else to focus on first, like almost 30 pages of history.

Oh, and about your vote.  Like I said, it doesn't matter to me either way, but if you care, your predecessor was already voting (happens to be for me) when you joined the game - you inherited his vote like everything else he had in the game.  If you don't want your vote placed, you're going to need to type unvote in red to change that.

Unvote it is, then.

[Imp]

Unvote it is, then.

*grins*  Because that ended up inside the quote marks, the programs used to help notice votes won't catch it.  When convenient, try that once more, outside of the quote.

Don't worry about any mistakes like that, there's nothing Scummy about learning.

Repeating the link here, there's a vote tracker/lurker tracker/post tracker program that many players use to help keep up with the thread (happens our moderator wrote and hosts this one).  I mostly use the program for checking when someone last posted (especially if it's been a while) and for easily finding and opening a group of a specific player's posts, but it's got a lot of uses.

But I think our Mod uses that program heavily, and because your unvote is inside a quote, it won't even be picked up by the vote-tracking parts of the program (that way we can quote each other when votes/unvotes are used, but not screw up the vote-tracking of our own real votes).

[Gentlefish]

Bweh. That was pure accident hahaha unvote me. I'd like to make a more... informed decision.

[Tiruin]

Before I complete my post (yeah holidays + preparing for uni), I'd like to ask a few things.

Squill: It is LYLO. You're seriously voting for Imp under grounds of this accusation? The same would follow for Rolepgeek, but by far--what Imp said is perfectly her own opinion, and will not daunt others from playing. I mean, its pretty obvious that people would be irritated or depressed at the level of activity given how much effort they've put into it.

Humor me. Did you think that case would be believable enough to stand? You seem to be concluding more than investigating, given how you aren't leaving anything for Imp. Is that a conclusion back there?

Pufferfish. You have a nice name.

I suspect Rolepgeek for pulling a behind-the-scene retreat given the presence of his vote, and the lack of proof/evidence behind said vote. Tell me, in your own opinion, how this whole post feels to you. While you are a replacement and not held on accusations which speak of the previous party's act--being subjective in this matter--you hold up his role and name. Check the link, and tell me your opinion there. Same goes for the line of reasoning on scumhunting: Does anger define scum?

Especially the last line. People voting for someone for...complaining (where the crux of that situation lies in activity) is a very fallible case, if at all a case.

Also, how do you view Imp?

Imp:
I see you as town. How does that feel?

The crucial part of the game is the endgame. So far the middle and beginning lead up to it. Where do you see the difference between a newbie-tell and a scum-tell?

I'd love to know why you go into detail in explaining yourself.

bsnott You're new. Welcome to Bay12.

This is forum mafia. Know that we're divided by only two things: the lack of body language and the presence of timezones. Expect answers to be delayed, but not outright ignored-if something is amiss, call out the person and check up on them.

At this stage in the game, I'd like to ask you how you see aggression, and its relevance to being scum/town. So too goes detailing your posts-how does this appear to you? Know that I ask in general as...well, replacements this late in game really kills the tracing on people.

Imp/Puff: (I do recall you like being called Puff..)
Why did you both unvote?

Dude. It was like six hours between asking the question and demanding an answer. It is not a good time for me to answer the questions in this thread right now. But if you need an answer, I was not going to pick him apart for annoying me. I was going to pick him apart anyway, and was motivated to do so(instead of lurk more because I had no motivation) and focus on him primarily because he was annoying me at the time. There is nothing wrong with trying to get answers, but there can be something wrong with the method you go about it.

I would love for you to remember that Imp is female. >.>

[Gentlefish]

@Tiruin

Imp/Puff: (I do recall you like being called Puff..)
Why did you both unvote?

I unvoted because I'm reading up on what's going on. Although I assumed the role of RPG, I do not assume his assumptions on people.

Also I am okay with Puff, Puffer, Fish, and other permutations. Puff, I find, is easiest.

Pufferfish. You have a nice name.

I suspect Rolepgeek for pulling a behind-the-scene retreat given the presence of his vote, and the lack of proof/evidence behind said vote. Tell me, in your own opinion, how this whole post feels to you. While you are a replacement and not held on accusations which speak of the previous party's act--being subjective in this matter--you hold up his role and name. Check the link, and tell me your opinion there. Same goes for the line of reasoning on scumhunting: Does anger define scum?

Especially the last line. People voting for someone for...complaining (where the crux of that situation lies in activity) is a very fallible case, if at all a case.

Also, how do you view Imp?

I point, a little, to my top words. I don't assume RPG's personality or their assumptions and I believe I needed to catch up and dissect the words of everyone before I decide a vote.

When it comes to Anger and Scum-dom, there is a difference. A pretty big one. But when played right, anger can be portrayed as scum, and vice-versa. I honestly didn't understand his vote. Imp is vocal, yes, and has made it this far, yes; but that doesn't mean Imp is scum.

Imp is vocal and has actually helped me understand the game as it currently stands. It really is a great time to hop in, right into the midst of it all. No-one can be counted out for me right now, though I honestly hold Imp in a positive light. I feel RPG was was just pestering, not pressuring.

[Imp]

Welcome back, Tiruin.

Imp:
I see you as town. How does that feel?

Where do you see the difference between a newbie-tell and a scum-tell?

I feel keenly aware that three of us are shooting in the dark, aiming for the two of us who have knowledge and hostile intent.  But it's not totally dark, the history of every post made this game is lit.  Each player's strategies, such as they are, are laid out behind us.  This is complicated by the inexperience most of us have.

You see me as Town...  I feel deeply neutral about that.  I think I know why you do, if you are Scum - and why you do, if you are Town.  Subtracting a Scum's extra knowledge, the reasoning between either is largely the same.  It's about intention, and the difference between newbie-tell and scum-tell.

Newbie-tells.  You don't know how to get what you want.  Don't know how to tell when you have it.  Like a baby wants a toy, but can't control his limbs to reach for it.  The toy put into his hands, can't control his grip and drops it.  That's the deepest level of newbie-tell.  Scum-tell.  Newbie or not, Scum tells are hostile.  Sometimes very subtly hostile.  They have a goal of guiding the search for Scum into directions that do not lead towards Scum.  This can be done anywhere on the spectrum of active to passive, from cautious to risky.

The line between a newbie, unable to effectively control how they act, unable to tell if their plans and the results are helpful or not, and a Scum, possibly equally newbie and thus equally errant and unpredictable, is in consistency.  The newbie Townie cannot help but do right and wrong things, but will be trying to do right things.  Will reach towards trying to do right action and on the level of their understanding will reach towards dropping wrong actions and reach towards right ones.

The newbie (or experienced) Scum is trying to avoid doing the right things, in the right way which could lead to the detection of Scum.  There may be newbie tells here too, but the scum is trying to avoid right action while not looking like they're trying to avoid it.

So a Scumtell is right action, focused only in the wrong directions.  Another is mostly ineffectual action, in any and all directions - that one's impossible to tell from newbie - without looking at intention.  That measure of intention, shown over time, or most rarely, shown in key moments where choices must be made that actually greatly affect wincon conditions and are hard even for a newbie to misunderstand.  That intention is the core of Scumtell, newbie or not.

Or so it seems to me.  As to your seeing me as Town, regardless of your role.  I have acted, consistently and persistently, towards the achievement of a Town win from my first post of play.  Not all of my actions have been effective, some have been counterproductive.  I have responded to the results of my actions and shown, again and again, that I am reaching 'for the good' and 'recoiling from the bad'.  This is a Town-tell, and I believe that my play over the entire course of the game shows a solid mix of Town-tells and Newb-tells, that this is visible, constant, and strong.

My feeling about your words, They are honest; but it cannot be used to help determine your role, because my intentions as shown in my play are not the sort of thing that is easy to miss if looked for and you're the sort of mind that looks.  It would be downright weird for you to say anything else, at least without express examples, asking me what I did, why I did it, why I stopped doing some things and shifted to doing other things.  You would be failing to appear to be Town yourself if you did not Scumhunt Scumminess as you saw it.

You are, quite appropriately, inviting me to make my stance clearer on other issues, those you feel appropriate for clarity and better revealing my intentions and comfort of thought.  If you are Scum, in the situations of this game, I expect your expression of anti-Town motive to be -extremely- subtle and deep.  I expect all surface and middle level of behavior from you to clearly express Town motives.  I've put considerable thought into how I'm going to try and determine your role.  That will not be discussed this thread, but in the next I post to you.

I'd love to know why you go into detail in explaining yourself.

Reason varies at different points where I do.  The main three reasons are:

1) Some of the people I'm playing beside I believe may not have much experience to judge on.  By offering a whole line of thought I hope to allow them to follow, step by step if needed, and decide where they agree and disagree with each conclusion and opinion I offer.  This is both offered as an example of 'how to do it' and as 'showing my work', showing each stage of my intention and reasoning, as a way to better allow people to judge what may possibly otherwise seem to be logic jumps and extremely unreasonable.  This reasoning greatly increases my use of detail when I believe I play beside highly inexperienced people.

2) If I cannot understand someone's line of thinking, it looks flawed to me.  That's a very deep bias, on the level of 1+3=6 is flawed.  But I do not need to reach the same conclusions as the other to understand the other.  All I need to do is be able to see as they see, and see how they reasonably could see it.  -That- works for me.  Really deeply, smoothly, and comfortably.  I believe a lot of people have trouble lying on that level, especially about motivation and intention.  I use this when I wish to invite others into my perspective, especially when 'I'm doing something weird'.

3)  I sometimes choose to 'over-explain' because I've experienced 'You don't make sense' a lot throughout my life - often about things that look very clear (complex, yes, but clear) to me.  So I explain why I think what I do - so others can see how I see, see how I got there, and hopefully follow it and if I'm wrong, show me which step is wrong and what's wrong about it.  If they follow it and go somewhere else, I hope they can help me see the alternate path so that I can follow it too - because if I wasn't already following it, I either didn't see it, or saw something wrong about it.

Imp/Puff: (I do recall you like being called Puff..)
Why did you both unvote?

I want Puff, bsnott, and you to get caught up on the thread.  I'm not ready to move 'forward' until everyone's ready to play.  Votes are a form of moving forward.

I was worried about 'vote shenanigans' until recently.  However no two players can make a shorten happen and we have a long way to go until end of day.  The end of day that recently almost occurred put a LOT of power into the hands of a small number of our players - because of 1)overall inactivity and 2) vote placement 3) and imminent end of day.

Right now we've got overall activity, significant time before end of day gets close again, and two very new replacements.  I am currently unconcerned about vote manipulation because I think it's impossible under current circumstances to pull off for a Scum win, and I believe they won't try something that obvious without a guaranteed win.

My unvote should not be taken as a change of heart, stance, or opinion upon the role possessed by Rolepgeek/Pufferfish.  I will state that none of these, nothing of my opinion of that role has changed in the slightest as of yet.  I viewed that role as the most certain probability of being Scum and I still do.

I intend my unvote as a gesture of respect to the new replacee and an overt invitation to spend time 'catching up' without any possible perception of additional pressure from the vote - there's already tons of pressure I do believe.

To me votes are a form of active request.  I may be requesting someone act to provide information, act to provide attention, act to provide a behavioral change, or be acted upon to provide proof of their role; but my current request to Pufferfish is utterly passive (on my side).

I'm requesting him to catch up on the thread, to figure out what's happened/is happening, to decide where he stands, and to let me know when he's ready.  He appears perfectly willing to cooperate, these appear to be in line with his current intentions and actions even without knowing my preference - if anything changed in his behavior from awareness of my vote upon him, it almost certainly could not be a change in the directions I wish him to take.

Thus my vote is in abeyance, for now.  This will change when I am ready to ask for actions to occur.

Considering your experience, Tiruin, I ask you as our IC: Is my reasoning appropriate for 'proper standards of play' in this game?  Is the action itself reasonable?

[bsnott]

bsnott You're new. Welcome to Bay12.

This is forum mafia. Know that we're divided by only two things: the lack of body language and the presence of timezones. Expect answers to be delayed, but not outright ignored-if something is amiss, call out the person and check up on them.

At this stage in the game, I'd like to ask you how you see aggression, and its relevance to being scum/town. So too goes detailing your posts-how does this appear to you? Know that I ask in general as...well, replacements this late in game really kills the tracing on people.

I'm not actually new to Bay12, just to Mafia. I've familiarized myself with the terminology and gameplay mechanics on EpicMafia lately, a good 20 games by now. I understand how to cc and out and things like that, but I still don't understand scumhunting.

[Imp]

I'm not actually new to Bay12, just to Mafia. I've familiarized myself with the terminology and gameplay mechanics on EpicMafia lately, a good 20 games by now. I understand how to cc and out and things like that, but I still don't understand scumhunting.

Heh, that must be different, at least in terminology.  I've no idea what cc and out mean, that's not been talked about in the games I've read or anything else.  I'll go google them in connection to epicmafia, that'll surely find them, but here's some references to scumhunting that I've found good.

You're going to notice that these are mostly guides for playing well as Scum.  That's where I've found what I think is the clearest Scumhunting advice.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mastin%27s_Mafia_Q%26A  (how do I scumhunt section, especially 2,3, 6 and 8 - other tips seem vague, less useable at lylo, or designed for more advanced games to me)
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=A_(slightly)_in-depth_guide_for_playing_well_as_scum
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Interactive_Tells (sections Townhunting is just as important as scumhunting., Mindset is linked heavily into interactions., The "how" is just as important as the "why"!,  the entire "What about other tells?" section and the rest of the article from that point.

Also the first post in the thread, the spoilers 'Spoiler: A List of Common Scumtells' and 'Frequently Asked Questions' spoiler.  There's also a 'Spoiler: Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible, reposted here for your convenience' - However that bible seems only useful for D1 play to me, I'd suggest comparing that to information in the mafiascum links and deciding for yourself what's useful to you.

[Gentlefish]

Imp:

Thanks for the wiki links, and most of all the voter-link. That's helping me figure out exactly how RPG's been playing. And how you've been playing, and how Squill's been playing, and BSnott and Tiruin... Well, everyone.

Question for you, though.

At which post did you decide RPG to be the scummiest?

Tiruin:

You're the IC here. What do you believe is the best way forward for town to win? What do you think the scum is going to/should do? How should we move forward to prevent said plan?

Squill:

What are you planning to do in this situation? You've upped your posts recently. Do you think you could help the town win?

BSnott:

Hello, it's my first game, too. the previous caretaker of your role was fingered as very suspicious by a lot of people. Can you convince me, through interpretive dance the previous posts of the person whose role you picked up why you're not someone I should be suspicious of?

Imp/Squill:

Since you two seem to be the most active, you two must have a good idea of what's going on. What are the chances of co-ordination of a hunt, however loose that may be?

Everyone:

Who're you most suspicious of? I understand that I'm likely on a few of your lists and I take no offense. I did replace a suspicious looking person.

Currently on my list I have Mr.Zero-now-BSnott. I mean no offense to you BSnott. As was my case, you picked up a suspicious role, and, to keep it concise, I believe there enough evidence for me to be suspicious.

[Tiruin]

Mod: Votecount. Timecount. Regular update please!

Puff

Tiruin:

You're the IC here. What do you believe is the best way forward for town to win? What do you think the scum is going to/should do? How should we move forward to prevent said plan?

Tiruin draws out an arc welder and turns it on. "The best way forward is the most direct path. It begins when you start."

If I were to predict scum movement, I'd say they're taking it easy. Town (and I) are busied by RL and/or, inactivity. Inactivity is a scumplot. When I say that, I mean that they can easily win given:
a. A NK (the factional NightKill)
b. Vote manipulation (manual red-voting at the last second [yea, this is...frowned upon by general honor]) or..abilities--not in a BM.
Which details why activity = Town's best power. Town is the general mass of people. The Mafia are those shady people who know each other, and know who to strike. The former relies on talking to each other and the process of communication and information dissemination to win, while the other relies more on obfuscation/redirection of ideas and implanting misbelief or chaos, with subjective levels of such in every game, to achieve their wincon. Or just play a good 'towngame'.

Expecting the scumIC, he'd be talking about theoretical advances and which way to win. I cannot talk more about that because the matter is...superfluous or nebulous given this case.

Any plan taken, however, is prevented by action. Wherein action equals posting. Pertinent and relevant posting.

Who're you most suspicious of? I understand that I'm likely on a few of your lists and I take no offense. I did replace a suspicious looking person.

Currently on my list I have Mr.Zero-now-BSnott. I mean no offense to you BSnott. As was my case, you picked up a suspicious role, and, to keep it concise, I believe there enough evidence for me to be suspicious.

I suspect you, mainly by your predecessor--who votes at a crucial time on grounds of...well, reaction to emotion without expounding on how it affects the outlook of the generality. This falls on Squill, too, however I'm busy playing a conventional mindgame with him right now--it's failing, as you can see by him not speaking.

However both suspects, as of recent and prior time, have had their votes on others on...subtleness. What I see is spuriousness behind the vote.

@/Imp (part of your post's query is also here) is...performing very well. TBH, I'd be surprised if she was scum, and this has no basis on her...rant(?) earlier given her play this game despite the faulty wiring it has received.

And bsnott is really vague in my eye because I've been reading more on his predecessor. Mr.Zero, I find, is a person of contemplation. Nothing I've seen for and against him as of now (read incomplete) strikes me as obviously scummy.

Recounting: D3 - where I started my outlook (from most recent to back in the thread), I checked and related the relevance of suspicion to the actor and their vote. Said two people come out on top with..unclear motive and debatable performance. It's unstable play and shaky ground, to best describe my sight of them.

Expounding.
Rolepgeek's last post. The one which attracted my attention (since I was reading backwards..yeah  )
Point taken on his stance, but the suspicion on why x or y is alive tends to lead into WIFOM territory without explanation. Something which I see is lacking on why Imp is alive or not. A counterargument is why is the discussion even starting on that point, which renders the idea fallible. In general..I'm not seeing this post having lots of substance (sans the expression on activity)

I think it's extremely suspicious that Imp is still alive. And that neither of the night-kills have been of people he was claiming were scum, for that matter. Seems like he didn't want to prove himself wrong, so he could try to mislynch us.

This point (and IMP IS A SHE) seems like a subtle diversion into something a townie, if such, cannot properly defend against, and a scum-y, could easily handwave. Meaning: It's not direct.
Secondly, comes the mark on Imp's WoTs. While they are...intimidating, sure, it doesn't hurt at all to give it a read for it either details a person's outlook on things, or how he/she analyzes in public-visual form. This can be averted or straightened by giving more specific answers, however I do note one thing. Role not-so-subtly turned the idea of Imp's play into a whole new act against her, or possibly, just mistook the train of thought there.
Check the line of thought to the quote above this:

Several assumptions being made here that aren't there in reality, as far as I can tell.
First is the assumption that Imp is trying to dominate the game verbally, and that he's using WoTs to try and break apart anyone who disagrees with him.
NEXT, is the assumption that Deathsword is telling Imp to be less active.
Neither of these are true, as far as I can tell. And then there's the underlying assumption, that I'm recently realizing is untrue.
The assumption that WoTs are the best way to go about communicating in this game.

...It does not follow. Cue a note later on the matter on his vote, stating his suspicion.

Reasons have been given this whole game, and even if you're deciding you've had enough(which could easily be a front, after all), you still aren't dead.

The whole course of logic does not follow, though I do like how he made his starting posts.

This, mayhap, counts for his play and...lackluster act, if he were innocent.

Given this, I can somewhat understand his viewpoint.

I've stated all this as a generality to everyone and not just to a single person.

And one thing I'd love to agree on.

Yes to both.  I'm aware that I read faster than most, but during the course of this game I've read several other finished Mafia games, in full.  I enjoy reading and commonly read hundreds of pages of text (written book pages) a day because I want to read it.

*high-five speedreader!*

Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)

...I'd love to know where that kind of chatroom is

I will be straightforward with you, my little delectable poison fish, and say that I am wavering on my suspicion on you given the past notes. Your actions, recently, have only spoken of general snooping and inquisitiveness, and preferable honesty on exactly what to do. While it is generally unfair to judge a person via past actions committed, it is generally fair to ascertain whether said actions are *enough* to judge said person.

Tell me. Who do you suspect and why? Do you have any say on my reads?

Imp
I made a long post on my reply to you but I'm at another PC (with better net >_>) so...I'll get back to that later on, due to time constraints and a really really agonizing life at the moment :S

What purposes did you use your vote for, before?
Specifically:
Here. With the question above still standing.

[zombie urist]

Day extended to Monday November 11th 9PM PST. Note this is one week from tomorrow

Imp - squill
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish - Tiruin
Tiruin -

Not voting - bsnott

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

[Imp]

To bsnott, Puff, and Tiruin:

How caught up are you on your readthroughs?
bsnott and Puff:
If your answer is Very or Done - how much do you feel like you understand what has happened (I don't mean agree with, approve of it, or any of that - just comprehension of what was said and does it mean anything other than gibberish to you) and how much did you scim over versus really read?  This affects how I'm going to question you and what I'm going to ask you - as well as how easily I'm going to trust your views and how I discuss your views with you both.

I'm going to remind you both that lying looks super scummy, at least to me.  If, for example, one or both of you feel that reading 20% or so of the thread's the most you're willing to do, and most of it doesn't make sense to you - that's FAR better to admit (if you want Town to win) than saying 'Yeah, I read it all, what do you want to talk about?.  Telling me what you think I want to hear, and getting caught in untruth, is only going to look like red flags of Scumminess to me, more than a desire to not read the thread would look like.
bsnott, Puff:

If the answer is less than 'Very caught up on the thread' - I have no further words for you at this time.  Please focus on getting caught up, or tell me that you're not going to and what you have read.  I feel like my ability to meaningfully question or discuss our situation with each of you is severely hampered, because you don't know what's happened.  Sure, I can -tell- you what I think happened and you can discuss with me what you think of my words - that's not what I want, that's not going to help us catch Scum (unless your goal is to use that method to attempt to assess my Scumminess - in which case you still need to read the thread and understand it very well).

I honestly have nothing to say except encouragement to bsnott and Puff until you two are caught up or mostly caught up.  I'm here, I'm glad you're here, keep working on getting ready to have the conversation we're about to have if you're not already ready.  If/when you are ready, please be sure to let us all know.

Puff:

Imp:
Question for you, though.

At which post did you decide RPG to be the scummiest?

I will answer this, but I want your answer on how caught up you are on the thread first, please.  Part of the reason why I'd like your answer first is I believe I say this in the thread.

Imp/Squill:

Since you two seem to be the most active, you two must have a good idea of what's going on. What are the chances of co-ordination of a hunt, however loose that may be?

I don't understand what you're asking about, ask again another way?  Include who is hunting, what you mean by a hunt, and what you mean by co-ordination.  Or make any of those definitions clear enough so the rest falls into meaning by context.  Again, it's possible I'm going to request to withhold my answers until you're at least mostly done with the readthrough.

Tiruin:

I want you fully caught up on the thread too, but you're different than them in a few ways.  For one, I believe you've been following the thread fairly closely for most of its history.

You formally joined us here, when zombie announced your replacing Deathsword.

When he did that, he posted the vote count as of that time, and that looked like this:

  Imp
  Squill
  Rolepgeek - Imp
  Superblackcat - Rolepgeek
  Mr.Zero
  Deathsword
  Darvi - Superblackcat

He did NOT say anything about when Day ended - which was roughly 24 hours from that post.
I greet you and ask you two questions here.  One of them's if you need time to catch up.  I also remind all that there's 19 hours left to end of Day.

In fact, keep reading from that point, focusing on my and your interactions.  There's too much to quote, so I'm going to hit the highlights.  NO ONE POSTS.... so I post again, 7 hours to end of day.  The vote board is UNCHANGED, because no one has posted, no one has posted VOTE CHANGES.

In this post I say there's seven hours left.  I discuss the TIED VOTES, and explain -

My current strong scum reads, across the entire game, are Rolepgeek and Deathsword-now-Tiruin.  Presuming this silent apathy continues, neither is possible to lynch as the board currently stands.

I have three choices. 

I do not trust anyone to be active in this thread in time before D end.  I will remain periodically active throughout the day, so I am responsive if people actually start posting.

I can allow a tie, which currently exists.  I can do this by not changing my vote, or by unvoting, which would turn a three way tie into a two way tie; no significant difference.

I can switch my vote to Superblackcat.  (explain why I don't - I believe he is probably Town)

I can switch my vote to Griffinpup-became-Darvi.  (explain why I do, despite him being a null-read to me, and one that should have been mod-killed or forcibly mod-replaced given the intense inactivity of an IC no less)

Tiruin, When you finally do post, you appear to ignore ALL of this, despite that you even quote some of the things I've said.

Regarding the end of day/extension issue - when you do post you say this about it:

I'd be catching up on it later on-however I really doubt that there'd be time left.

I am..really lacking questions because I am really lacking the time to read up.

But you do NOT ask for an extension.

I'd be catching up on it later on...I am really lacking the time to read up.

Yet - you don't ask for extension.  Either.  No one is asking for an extension.  Sure, with no time left to answer my question - why not, Tiruin?

You may not even be alive come D3, to be able to make that promised 'later' post.  Or maybe you're tacitly admitting that yeah, you're scum, you're quite appropriately playing towards your wincon, for which going to night hours after your first post as a player; without having caught up or read up on the thread, without any use of your vote doesn't do anything to impede your wincon at all.  Hot damn.

When I challenge you on this - you reply.  You even quote me saying "less than 3 hours to end of D" -

So here we go; less than 3 hours to end of D

Well extending the game.. >_<

Yet - you don't ask for extension.  Either.  No one is asking for an extension.  Sure, with no time left to answer my question - why not, Tiruin?

I..think I did.

And then you go on to focus on explaining your lack of providing a read - something you already explained.

What's that face you made about, what does 'Well extending the game.. >_<' mean?  This is NOT a casual question, Tiruin.  Do NOT disregard it again, as you did repeatedly at the time you answered it.  You had JUST replaced in.  You say repeatedly that that you lack time, you even say "I really doubt that there'd be time left".  Gee, why's that?  Because you don't want an extension, huh?  Why not, Tiruin?  As I asked then.  Why not?  And you STILL haven't answered it.  I don't want 'blah blah words'.  This is a seriously Scummy-seeming thing to me, especially combined with your other lack of reasonable, pro-Town action, which I'll talk about next. 

What I want from you is deep explanation, I want you to put my in your mind and guide me, step by step along your thoughts as you made these decisions.  I'll decide for myself what your motivations were - but your ACTIONS and LACK OF ACTIONS were PRO-SCUM at a time when PRO-SCUM actions could be meaningful and effective.  YOU ARE NOT NEW, STUPID, OR CONSIDERED A POOR PLAYER, AS SCUM OR TOWN.  I -beg- you to explain yourself in a way that makes sense to me, regardless of how offended you feel at my questions.  Not seeking an extension at that time is PURELY pro-Scum, right?  Lack of extension has NO pro-Town value under those circumstances, right?

...Ok this insults me as a player. This is not what I would do as any alignment, ever. Because it's, to be saying bluntly, damn cheap. Players have principles and I stick to said principles regardless of what alignment I have, thank you very much.

I'm offended too, Tiruin.  I feel betrayed.  We get through this and we patch it up outside of play, or not.  But I see no other way to play than I am, when faced by every factor that has happened - including and especially your own actions and words since entering play.  Consider me standing on a ledge.  Stepping off of it is accepting what I see, that you are Scum, and you have proven this through your own choices upon joining the game.  Talk me down, please, if you can.  The wrong pressure won't work.  The only one that might is to help me understand why your actions that appear solidly deceptive and of hostile intention, are in fact pro-Town and reasonable play.

But then you made it worse.  On top of acting anti-Town by not seeking the very reasonable and needed Extension, you then place a vote without a word why.  And that vote slams atop the two vote lead, locking that lynch, guaranteeing that death.

Now I'm even more scared that you are Scum.  I have explained that Darvi was a null-read to me, a deeply dissatisfying compromise vote for me and there you are dropping a certain kill strike on him without a word why.  That makes me SO scared I'm afraid to even return my vote to Rolepgeek, for fear that you'll gracefully follow me, knowing as Scum that he's Town, or gracefully -won't- follow me, knowing as Scum that he's Scum.

Your reasons, when they come, begin with asking me

...So why did you vote Darvi in the first place?

Your reasons almost perfectly mirror mine (said more briefly, of course) - and this is quite sensible - except your perspective is given from -then-.

When you voted, votecount looked like this:

  Imp
  Squill
  Rolepgeek
  Superblackcat - Rolepgeek
  Mr.Zero
  Deathsword
  Darvi - Superblackcat, Imp

So when you talk about the 'choice' between Superblackcat and Darvi, you actually mean the choice between lynching Darvi and no-lynch.

But you NEVER mention that.  You are discussing it from the perspective of seeing the board as:

  Imp
  Squill
  Rolepgeek
  Superblackcat - Rolepgeek
  Mr.Zero
  Deathsword
  Darvi - Superblackcat

But the board was NEVER like that, NEVER - not since you joined the game.  The board was like THIS:

  Imp
  Squill
  Rolepgeek - Imp
  Superblackcat - Rolepgeek
  Mr.Zero
  Deathsword
  Darvi - Superblackcat

And you FAIL to discuss Rolepgeek as a lynch choice.  You nod towards him, oh, yes:

I would really much like Rolepgeek who is voting while in replacement to expound on his reason on SBC, as well as links to it.

That's not discussion of someone as a possible lynch choice.

Your facts, Tiruin, fail to match reality.  You are no confused newbie.  This is your VOTE at in the final HOURS of D2, within 24 hours of yourself replacing in.  You admit you feel time pressured.  You fail to ask for an extension, and when I offer to support one you dismiss that with "Well extending the game.. >_<" and then claim that you thought you DID request an extension.  Then you reference

...I had thought that nobody was into extending it -I looked at ZU's votecount at the time.

How can you think that when you -quote me- offering to support an extend?  For that matter, when do you stop making the right choices, even if you are the only one doing so, especially when you are an IC in a newbie game?

So, Tiruin.

Need time to catch up on the thread?  I'll support anyone's requests for an extension at this point.

YOU EVEN QUOTE ME STATING THAT "My current strong scum reads, across the entire game, are Rolepgeek and Deathsword-now-Tiruin.  Presuming this silent apathy continues, neither is possible to lynch as the board currently stands."

My current strong scum reads, across the entire game, are Rolepgeek and Deathsword-now-Tiruin.  Presuming this silent apathy continues, neither is possible to lynch as the board currently stands.

I do not say that Tiruin's Scummy too - there's been no time for that player to show anything of their play in this game as a player.  But she holds a role that looked incredibly scummy to me before - if it was possible to lynch either Rolepgeek or Deathsword-now-Tiruin, one of those two would have my vote now to help ensure that lynch.

Precluding the lack of human response from replacement, hold your doubt or suspicion based on the previous person to hold said role. If past person is scummy, refer all now-questions you had on him to the now-her.

WRONG FOCUS.  IT WAS ONLY 4.5 hours to end of day at that point.  How do you ignore that I'm not voting for my top Scum reads?  How do you leap onto Darvi as if Darvi were a clear choice for lynch, when you can't even describe him as one yourself, when you finally 'explain' your vote?

When you do react to my pressure about voting for Darvi, it's NOT to ask me why I'm not voting for my top Scum choice, you have the WRONG FOCUS and you ask instead - and far to late for any possible answer that day, less than 10 minutes before the Day should have closed -

...So why did you vote Darvi in the first place?

And I'd already explained that.

[quoting me, talking to me, throughout this entire thread]
you're acting the martyr.

...

What's wrong? :S

Darvi.

"What's wrong?"  You're acting like Scum, and I'd picked you out as someone who couldn't join the game, someone who I could feel comfortable with, someone who's {IC} voice, though not really belonging in the thread, I could trust and feel good about hearing.  -AND- I didn't have enough activity to do ANYTHING about it, or at that point, enough -TIME- to even do anything about it myself.

You took my trust in you away -and- you replaced it with 'playing like Scum at a time when playing like Scum has meaning'.

That's what's wrong.  That's a big part of why I said, "Hey Scum, coup de grace time, thank you very much".  Because I don't want to play through this.  For totally different reasons this is just as distasteful as interacting with Rolepgeek.  As I said with him, I will do it if I have to.  If I'd died, I would be off the hook.  If we'd not gotten the activity needed for the game to actually be played to the end (instead of just ending through 'time out', as it nearly did), then the game would have ended without this being able to be examined.

But I'm alive and now there's activity.  'Someone has to do it', I'm someone, and I see these choices you have made.  They look terrifyingly anti-Town to me.

You've had a lot of time to answer this question, but you still haven't: so I'll repeat it.  It's a really important one.  (sure, you 'provided an answer', because you quoted the question, but the answer utterly failed to address the scumminess of your actions OR clearly explain your behaviors and the GLARING LACKS of certain very reasonable and clearly sensible things that you fail to say and do, like ask for extension - like discuss my vote change and statement that I'm compromising because I cannot get either of my two top Scum picks lynched as is) but your answer is completely inadequate for my purpose of understanding why what you did was an experienced player's pro-Town actions)

If you are not Scum, then why the heck are you doing this?

Also - I'm not ignoring your questions to me.

And one thing I'd love to agree on.

Yes to both.  I'm aware that I read faster than most, but during the course of this game I've read several other finished Mafia games, in full.  I enjoy reading and commonly read hundreds of pages of text (written book pages) a day because I want to read it.

*high-five speedreader!*

Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)

...I'd love to know where that kind of chatroom is

I'm not talking about a chat room.  My "(written book pages)" are written book pages, I'm talking about reading books.  If I put all day aside to read, I can easily read a 500 page book in a day, with high memory and high comprehension.  I read roughly a page a minute, and reading is effortless to me.

Imp
I made a long post on my reply to you but I'm at another PC (with better net >_>) so...I'll get back to that later on, due to time constraints and a really really agonizing life at the moment :S

What purposes did you use your vote for, before?
Specifically:
Here. With the question above still standing.

I'm super sorry that you have agony in life.  Take the time you need, I'm going to push for extends until people have time to readthrough however much they're willing to, and for people including yourself to be able to answer.

I will answer the question about my vote's purpose next post.

[Squill]

Really sorry for not being here yesterday, all.

Before I complete my post (yeah holidays + preparing for uni), I'd like to ask a few things.

Squill: It is LYLO. You're seriously voting for Imp under grounds of this accusation? The same would follow for Rolepgeek, but by far--what Imp said is perfectly her own opinion, and will not daunt others from playing. I mean, its pretty obvious that people would be irritated or depressed at the level of activity given how much effort they've put into it.

Humor me. Did you think that case would be believable enough to stand? You seem to be concluding more than investigating, given how you aren't leaving anything for Imp. Is that a conclusion back there?

I think you're right. Imp was my best vote, but it was terribly thought out. For now, unvote.

Squill:

What are you planning to do in this situation? You've upped your posts recently. Do you think you could help the town win?

Currently, I plan on hopefully doing some sort of scumhunting. I hope I can help, but I'm a bit distracted right now.
Do you feel like Rolepgeek was justified in his actions?
How heavily do you think that the actions of past players should be taken into account when analyzing their replacements?

Thinking about the game, the players I feel most ambiguous about are Deathsword/Tiruin, bsnott/Mr. Zero.
@bsnott: Same questions for you:
Throughout the game, Mr. Zero had consistently bizarre behavior, noticeably tunneling SBC for the entire game. Do you think there's a reason for this?
How heavily do you think that the actions of past players should be taken into account when analyzing their replacements?

[Imp]

Squill, your backpedaling in your most recent post terrifies me.

I need you to state your mind, and when your mind changes, I need you to state why.  I need to understand your reasoning, period.  That means you need to say enough of it for me to follow it well enough to understand it and when it changes, you need to identify how and what changed your mind.

You ranked the four other players besides yourself in terms of Scumminess and somewhat explain why we are ranked so.

You vote for me, but at no point do you say I'm your top Scum pick, unless we want to use your vote as saying that, and the fact that you DO say who your second and third pick are, then your scummiest pick is either me, who has your vote, or bsnott, who you say " I had little on Mr. Zero, and bsnott hasn't posted much yet. While bsnott doesn't seem excessively town, he also doesn't seem too scummy. This bothers me, and I hope he posts more." and you list him last, after 2nd scummiest, after 3rd scummiest.

That strongly supports that you meant that your Scummiest to Towniest (or at least least-scummiest) choices are

Imp
Rolepgeek/Puff
Deathsword/Tiruin
Mr.Zero/bsnott


And that's fine.  Except you've just gone back on that and you haven't explained why at all.

Thinking about the game, the players I feel most ambiguous about are Deathsword/Tiruin, bsnott/Mr. Zero.

That means you feel the least ambiguous about Imp and Rolepgeek/Puff.

I'm going to ask you to state clearly, is Imp still your top Scumpick?  If yes, please state that case that others have also asked to see.  If not, please explain your complete about face, from moving me from your top Scumpick to your top Townpick with less ambiguosity than you feel for Deathsword/Tiruin, bsnott/Mr. Zero - which considering the reasons you gave for them seeming ambiguous -

I can't get a good read on Tiruin. Tiruin is my third choice simply because of Deathsword's behavior. While Tiruin's posts haven't seemed excessively scummy, they also seem a lot more level headed and probably more experienced than Deathsword.

And finally, there is bsnott. I had little on Mr. Zero, and bsnott hasn't posted much yet. While bsnott doesn't seem excessively town, he also doesn't seem too scummy. This bothers me, and I hope he posts more.

You're saying you can't read them.  So you're saying you -can- read me, at least better than them, and good enough to that I'm apparently your top Scum or top Town pick.  That's fine.  Being right or wrong is not Scummy - suspecting me (even if everyone else says I seem very Town to them) is not Scummy either.  But I need to understand why you think I am.

Even more than I need to understand you (if I am Scum and you are Town) you need to either test me as best you can (if you haven't yet), or present your already strong reasoning to the 'other Town players', especially if they're not seeing what you see, because there can be no mistakes now.  One mistake and Town loses.  So there's no time to 'wait and see'.  It is impossible to convince a player that they themself are Scum - but you can and should present your evidence to the other Town players, so the other Town players can be either convinced as well, or help you consider and test that evidence further, or help contradict you and point out that your reasoning is flawed.

Does this make sense?  If not, will you please point out what's wrong to you about my reasoning?

And will you please state with clarity, what your list of most-to-least-Scummiest players are?

And remember, more than one player has asked you to explain your case on me.  That would be great too.

You thinking I am Scum or not will NOT convince me that you are Town or Scum.  But being able to understand your thinking, especially over time (and thus exposing your intentions) - that CAN convince me, and will.