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[Meph]

My current thought process is this:
Mine Ore. => Get mineral bearing rock ore, a real ore.
Smelt it. => Get 50% metal bars, get 50% slag.

OR

Process it. => Get pure ore and blocks/boulders.
Smelt it => Get 100% metal bars, maybe some small amount of slag.

This means you can either smelt mineral-rock ore and get metal polution, or you go the extra way, and you get less waste and more boulders/blocks/materials. This would also fix the embark finder and stockpiling issues, and make the building completely optional. People can refine, or not refine, their choice.

Research System: I honestly and truly really like it. I am playing a fort myself atm, first one in ages, and I like how it slows down progress. I am not quite sure about the blueprints with the 10 steps, but the researching feels like a way better system then the previous blueprints. And people cant build everything in one year. Previously I managed to build ALL mod workshops in 1 year, with the exception of the magic buildings. Now it takes a lot longer and people have to specialise a lot more, leading to more diverse forts. But then again, for people that dont like it, I will make it optional as soon as I can alter the UI.

[Apani]

The choice would be pointless... Who would ever skip processing?

[Meph]

The choice is not pointless, as it adds real ore back into the game, which enables the embark finder to find   shallow/deep metals, and for ore stockpiles to find ore.

[Apani]

What I think pointless is the choice to smelt ore-bearing rocks directly without processing them before. Nobody would do that. I tend to dislike "who would ever do that and why?" choices.

[ElenaRoan]

Well it does mean the biggest complaints about it are addressed *chuckle*

[Lottanubs]

Well. I like it. It fixes the issue of the embark screen and stockpile bullshite. But here's my two cents: keep ores pure but have conventional furnaces smelt 100% ore with an extra 33% slag (Keep in mind the amount of smelting people do. This is still a considerable amount of slag lying around without crippling a player's early game) - Then later on a researched furnace (I'm not sure what the research furnaces do; I've never managed to unlock them. I'm bad a dwarf fortress.) have a greater yield, say 125% (Keep in mind not everybody plays on mineral scarcity 100; this could be a first priority for some people to unlock) with lower slag yield. Maybe 20% or 10%. Mix that in with the crucible (or whatever it is that processes slag) and we have a slag-free metal industry.

I think the whole point of adding the Ore Processor was to sidestep having to deal with slag. Now we're adding it back in?

[Meph]

Ehm, no. (?) I never said anything about the ore processor circumventing slag, just that it solves the bug that slag bars are used in moods. Slag is of course still there... If simple sorting would delete slag, then there wouldnt be tens of thousands of tons of slag that are produced worldwide every year.

[dukea42]

People who embark with ore to make their own tools, weapons at the beginning would skip processing. I mean I just did an embark like that and it was fine, but took longer that I like to get picks.

[SabbyKat]

My current thought process is this:
Mine Ore. => Get mineral bearing rock ore, a real ore.
Smelt it. => Get 50% metal bars, get 50% slag.

OR

Process it. => Get pure ore and blocks/boulders.
Smelt it => Get 100% metal bars, maybe some small amount of slag.

This means you can either smelt mineral-rock ore and get metal polution, or you go the extra way, and you get less waste and more boulders/blocks/materials. This would also fix the embark finder and stockpiling issues, and make the building completely optional. People can refine, or not refine, their choice.

Research System: I honestly and truly really like it. I am playing a fort myself atm, first one in ages, and I like how it slows down progress. I am not quite sure about the blueprints with the 10 steps, but the researching feels like a way better system then the previous blueprints. And people cant build everything in one year. Previously I managed to build ALL mod workshops in 1 year, with the exception of the magic buildings. Now it takes a lot longer and people have to specialise a lot more, leading to more diverse forts. But then again, for people that dont like it, I will make it optional as soon as I can alter the UI.

My two cents.

That change to ore processing, is 100% correct in action. Optional, yet still valuable. Right now it's forced and generally, pointless since it gives no perks over the old natural way. (I know it's a beta variation in the game now ). This would give choice as to fast vs efficient.

As well, if you still plan to add relics, gems, 'extra' ores, and such smaller % chances from ore processors, it would be the more logical choice (and arguably fun, if you make some interesting rare chance events from it).



As for researching, I'm torn. On one side, I like the concept - on the other, I think the whole blueprint system attached to this is overly redundant and a pain in the freakin' ass to do for absolutely no benefit. You can argue it 'slows down the game' - sure. It does. But from what I've read and my limited experience, the whole blueprint print system is burdensome and clunky. (even more so then it was prior).

my thoughts to fix it, are basically, remove it. make researching things unlock them to build. Make researching success % vary on the rarity/difficulty of the building. If you have further issues with people getting them too fast - simply ensure they take a standard, but difficult to make (or variety of these) item to build the building. Similar to the spring-steel tool, not TOO hard to acquire, but takes work to mass produce.

Another idea, is instead of blueprints, make certain buildings have different 'levels of understanding' (Research). Say between 1-5 levels of buildings made by research. SO say you need to research 'Crucibles - basic' to gain access to 'basic crucibles' building, which are FAR less efficient than higher tiers. Perhaps higher arsenic poisoning and such negative events, slower processing, more slag, etc etc. Then as you get materials made from the crucible, you can research level 2 crucibles 'basic crucibles' (random names), which is better than the tier 1 variation of it, replacing the tier 1 version entirely from build lists.

So summarized:

You research the very basic understanding of a building, and can produce a 'crude' version of it. Using items made from that building (not always) - you can then research the next 2-4 advances in that building. I.E Crude (tier 1), Poor (tier 2), Basic (tier 3), Superior (tier 4), and Masterwork (tier 5). Each higher tier has harder 'research' requirements to successfully achieve. Each higher tier of building would be more efficient in all ways, and replace the previous 'tier' building in the build list. simple as that.

This negates the need for blueprints entirely, while slowing down the rate of acquiring of technology. If you wish to offer an alternative to 'making it yourself' - you can tie the 'items' you need to make for advanced research, to the shops that can sell them for a pretty penny giving a cost vs effort path, make it yourself, or pay up a hefty sum and skip it.

Again, this is just my opinion how to improve it with what I KNOW can be done in modding. Yes, I'm going off on a crazy idea spree again - sue me.

[silentdeth]

My current thought process is this:
Mine Ore. => Get mineral bearing rock ore, a real ore.
Smelt it. => Get 50% metal bars, get 50% slag.

OR

Process it. => Get pure ore and blocks/boulders.
Smelt it => Get 100% metal bars, maybe some small amount of slag.

This means you can either smelt mineral-rock ore and get metal polution, or you go the extra way, and you get less waste and more boulders/blocks/materials. This would also fix the embark finder and stockpiling issues, and make the building completely optional. People can refine, or not refine, their choice.

Wouldn't that unfix the slag mood fix? As I understood it the reason the ore processor fixed it is because slag was no longer considered a ore metal.

[Meph]

Yes, it was the fix for slag, but I think that changing slag to non-metal would also do this. I have to do some tests, but I remember wood bars from the smelter a while bag, which werent used for anything. So METAL_ORE:STEELOAK:100 gives steeloak ore which is smelted into bars, but I have to check if its metal or wood. Its so hard to test moods, because I cant really control them.

Sabbykat: I agree on the blueprints, I should probably do away with the architect entirely. Maybe use architecture for ALL build-labors.

The research system with level 1-3 or 1-5 buildings does sound interesting, but WOW... ehm... that means 5times more buildings... the horror ^^

[Felius]

Yes, it was the fix for slag, but I think that changing slag to non-metal would also do this. I have to do some tests, but I remember wood bars from the smelter a while bag, which werent used for anything. So METAL_ORE:STEELOAK:100 gives steeloak ore which is smelted into bars, but I have to check if its metal or wood. Its so hard to test moods, because I cant really control them.

Wasn't there a "mood starting" tool/dfhack script somewhere? I remember using something like that a few years ago. To test that particular issue, running a lot of moods on a fortress with a lot of slag and little to none actual metal bars might be enough. Maybe comment out most misc random items.

[Linkeron]

While you're all on the topic about what to do with the Ore Processor, here's an alternative idea.

Turn all metals into 'impure' ores that can be smelted and crafted as normal, but then retask the ore processor to filter out the impurities. Impure metals then have slightly lower stats than their 'pure' counterparts, and the 'pure' metals have the normal stats that we're used to. This would double the amount of metals in the RAWs that you mine for immediately, but wouldn't break the metals in stockpiles, or the finder tool.

Think 'impurities' as all the extra stuff you find when processing the ore anyway.

EDIT: Also, what exactly is the 'default/masterwork' tileset anyway? I look through the manual and changelogs a lot, and find multiple mentionings of such a tileset, but when I cycle through the tileset option in the Settings.exe, there is no such tileset listed.

[Meph]

Its Matrix, because I cant rename/change the UI atm.

And the idea itself is good, but doesnt make sense RL-wise. The metallurgist could purify metal, but the ore processor is an actual RL thing which crushes rocks and separated the ore. I can still do "Metal" and "patternwelded metal" or "damasc metal" for this improvement idea of yours.

[Linkeron]

So, is this not the actual look of the Matrix Tileset, but rather your specific tileset?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Nevermind, just ran a quick world with the tileset you said, and I have to say it looks much better than the advertised set, and even my usual Phoebus settings. Nice work.

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So, rather than 'impure' and 'pure,' have it be 'impure' then the normal name, then 'pure' once handled at the metallurgist? I'm not saying you have to do it, just suggesting a solution that might be rather easy to implement.