Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[eatdembeanz]

Maybe they're nationalist gang members? Skinheads and so on?

Possibly. Or it might be because the game lists hostile things as Conservative. The gangbangers don't agree with Conservative policy, they just dislike the Liberal Crime Squad.

[The Cheshire Cat]

Yeah, it's the same reason why Soldiers are always conservative even though you can find moderate or even liberal veterans. Their personal politics are less important in that context than the fact that they're part of an enemy "faction". I think the gang members in the crack house are always conservative since you need to be able to attack them to take it over. You could easily imagine them as being skinheads though, with the crack house being their main turf (which is why you wouldn't find any non-conservative gang members there - they aren't going to be welcome in a rival gang's territory!)

Speaking of gang members, how do you use a recruited gang member to buy weapons from the black market? I swear that was an option, or am I just misunderstanding how it works? I know you can talk to gang members while wandering around to buy guns but I thought you could buy directly from your own members if you had them.

[Liberal Elitist]

Speaking of gang members, how do you use a recruited gang member to buy weapons from the black market? I swear that was an option, or am I just misunderstanding how it works? I know you can talk to gang members while wandering around to buy guns but I thought you could buy directly from your own members if you had them.

You can buy weapons from Gang Members or Elite Security, at some locations but not others. The locations that currently work are Housing Projects, Crackhouses, and any of the 3 current/former CCS Hideouts. Also, you can't be wearing a police uniform or police body armor, or else they'll think your a cop. And it won't work if you're naked, since then they'll be all like "Jesus..." And it won't work if people at the site are alarmed.

And no, you can't buy anything from a Gang Member or Elite Security who's already been recruited and is part of the LCS already. I don't think that was ever an option.

[FinetalPies]

Do Elite Security offer a different selection of guns? I thought you could only buy from Gang Members

[Liberal Elitist]

They offer the same selection. Oh, and when I was looking up how this worked and posting it here, I decided it ought to be changed slightly. As of revision 725, along with Housing Projects, Crackhouses, and the 3 current/former CCS Hideouts, Homeless Shelters are now another appropriate location for buying from Gang Members or Elite Security if you run into either of them. Homeless Shelters are equally decrepit and full of criminal lowlifes as those other locations. I didn't add Abandoned Factories, though, since those can be turned into fancy business fronts. The other change was, they would think you were a cop if you wore a Police Uniform or Police Body Armor, but they'd still sell to you if you were wearing SWAT Armor or a Death Squad Uniform. Now, they'll assume you're a SWAT Officer if you have on SWAT Armor and not sell to you, and if Death Squads exist (police behavior and death penalty laws both C+), they'll assume you're a Death Squad Officer if you're wearing a Death Squad Uniform.

Prostitutes asked out on dates would similarly turn you down if they thought you were a cop, but only for someone wearing a Police Uniform or Police Body Armor. Now they check for all 4 of those law enforcement-related types of armor (although the Death Squad Armor, again, only makes them think you're a cop if Death Squads actually exist and both the laws concerning them are C+).

And yes, you can buy from Elite Security just like from Gang Members, I'm not sure when that was added or why or who did it, but seems legit, Elite Security would probably have access to great weapons, plus they AREN'T cops, they're private mercenaries only in it for the money.

And yeah, Gang Members and Elite Security both offer the exact same selection. If you want a different selection, shop at the Oubliette, Department Store, or Pawnshop.

Now, in lots of locations, Police Uniforms and Police Body Armor work as a disguise but SWAT Armor and Death Squad Uniforms don't. I am assuming this is because people would expect to see a regular Police Officer there, but the presence of a SWAT Officer or Death Squad Officer wouldn't be expected so you'd be out of place if disguised as one of them. So you might wonder, why would someone wearing, for instance, a SWAT Armor at a location where it isn't a valid disguise not be able to buy weapons or ask prostitutes out on dates? Well it's because the Gang Members, Elite Security, and Prostitutes are overly cautious, and even though a SWAT Officer would be considered out-of-place at such a location and thus it wouldn't be a valid disguise to wear SWAT Armor, they still wouldn't be entirely sure you're not a cop, and they'd be trying to play it safe and even if they think you probably aren't a cop, they'd avoid illegal activity in your presence just in case they're wrong, out of caution.

So that's an explanation of those changes in revision 725 that relate to this. Because after I looked up the answer to the question in the code and explained it here, something seemed a little off about it and I wanted to fix it. That's why I used the wording "The locations that currently work"... I was already planning on changing the list as soon as I saw Homeless Shelters weren't part of it, that's why I used the word "currently", since it seemed wrong to leave the Homeless Shelter out of a list of locations where criminals and lowlifes hang out and illegal activity is commonplace (something true of Housing Projects, Crackhouses, and CSS Hideouts).

[Theinsomniac]

Crack House only spawns conservative gang members, liberal and neutral gang members sometimes appear in the cafe.

[Elodie Hiras]

Liberal Elitist, unless it was changed since last time I checked, if a police uniforms works as a disguise, a Death Squad uniform works too since they ARE part of the Police Department and become the new regular cops... At least if the laws are such that the Death Squads actually exist.

[KA101]

Liberal Elitist, unless it was changed since last time I checked, if a police uniforms works as a disguise, a Death Squad uniform works too since they ARE part of the Police Department and become the new regular cops... At least if the laws are such that the Death Squads actually exist.

Except for the fact that Police is a partial cover no matter what: take a penalty on Disguise rolls for "why is a cop going around?"

[Liberal Elitist]

No, Elodie, actually I have looked at the code and Death Squad Uniforms DON'T work as disguises in all the same places where Police Uniforms and Police Body Armor both work, even if the Police Behavior and Death Penalty laws are both C+ and Death Squads are the regular police. Perhaps you might consider this a bug, perhaps not... I'm thinking about possibly changing it so that Death Squad Uniforms work too in all the places where Police Uniforms and Police Body Armor work when the laws are right. But I haven't done that yet. Here is one example in the code about Death Squad Uniforms not working but Police Uniforms and Police Body Armor both working (this is at Fire Stations when they have high security, and from stealth.cpp in the sitemode directory):

Code: [Select]

         case SITE_GOVERNMENT_FIRESTATION:
            if(levelmap[locx][locy][locz].flag & SITEBLOCK_RESTRICTED)
            {
               uniformed=0;
               if(cr.get_armor().get_itemtypename()=="ARMOR_BUNKERGEAR")uniformed=1;
               if(cr.get_armor().get_itemtypename()=="ARMOR_WORKCLOTHES")uniformed=1;
               if(cr.get_armor().get_itemtypename()=="ARMOR_OVERALLS")uniformed=1;
               if(location[cursite]->highsecurity)
               {
                  if(cr.get_armor().get_itemtypename()=="ARMOR_POLICEUNIFORM")uniformed=1;
                  if(cr.get_armor().get_itemtypename()=="ARMOR_POLICEARMOR")uniformed=1;
               }
            }
            break;

There are a bunch of other examples of this, where ARMOR_DEATHSQUADUNIFORM doesn't work even if both the laws concerning Death Squads are C+, but ARMOR_POLICEUNIFORM and ARMOR_POLICEARMOR both work. I don't know, would you consider this a bug?

See, the reason I haven't changed it is, well I don't know how to handle the SWAT Uniform that's worn by SWAT Officers. Should it also be handled the same way as ARMOR_POLICEUNIFORM and ARMOR_POLICEARMOR? Or would people find it suspicious to see someone dressed up as a SWAT Officer in an area that doesn't have high security, where nobody is alarmed, and where there isn't any reason for a SWAT raid? I'd like to deal with both Death Squad Uniforms and SWAT Uniforms at the same time... I mean it's a no-brainer that of course, Death Squad Uniforms should work in place of Police Uniforms and Police Body Armor whenever Death Squads are legal (Police Behavior law and Death Penalty law both C+). But dealing with SWAT Uniforms, I don't know exactly what to do, and I'd like to deal with both of those at the same time. I'm torn between 2 possibilities: 1 is to have SWAT Uniforms be a valid disguise wherever Police Uniforms and Police Body Armor work, and the other possibility is to only have them work as disguises if the site has high security or people there are alarmed. There is also the option of them being 2nd-rate disguises. In many places, Police Uniforms and Police Body Armor are 2nd-rate disguises. So it's a little complicated what to do.

The simplest/easiest solution would be to have SWAT Uniforms work just as well as Police Uniforms and Police Body Armor, and to also have Death Squad Uniforms work the same way whenever the 2 Death Squad laws are C+. Does this seem like the best solution to you? Sometimes I make a change and it's controversial and people complain and I have to change it back, so I want to see whether people agree with this change or not before I implement it, and how people think SWAT Uniforms should work in places that have low security and where people probably wouldn't expect to see a SWAT Officer (and thus might be rather suspicious of anyone dressed as one and think, maybe that is an LCS operative in disguise). Would people prefer an alternate solution, like having SWAT armors work at places with high security or where Conservatives are alarmed or where there is a raid/siege, but having them only be 2nd-rate disguises when that is not the case? I think I'll let you folks decide that question in your comments and then I'll implement what you decide is the best way to handle SWAT Uniforms. I would just suggest everyone take a look at stealth.cpp. So take a look at the code for stealth.cpp here and look at the list of disguises (look at the function char hasdisguise(const Creature &cr), on line 554).

[KA101]

SWAT is emergency response or high-profile security; possibly High Security at a government building but that ought to be fairly time-limited.  (Think post-bombings, etc.)

Cops don't go around in full tactical just in case a problem breaks out.  It could possibly work at the police station, and if SWAT is responding to a location (Vault breach!) then yeah, it ought to work.  Courthouse or DC locations, under High Security, and suitably armed, it'll do.

Death Squad...since they patrol and bust drug dealers, their uniforms ought to be acceptable as typical cops if the DS is active.

[Liberal Elitist]

OK, took care of the disguise stuff, in revision 730. Actually changed more stuff than I was originally planning on, didn't just deal with Death Squad Uniforms and SWAT Uniforms, but a bunch of other disguises now work too.

Just 4 examples of other changes:
* If you're disguised as a Hick (with Overalls or a Wife Beater) you can carry a Pitchfork or Torch around and people will think that is in character for you as a Hick.
* If the place is on fire, wearing Bunker Gear (the Firefighter disguise) is an acceptable disguise (since people will want someone to put out the fire and think you're a Firefighter who came to rescue them).
* A SEAL Suit is now an acceptable disguise wherever a Military Uniform or Army Body Armor is already an acceptable disguise (people will think you're a Navy SEAL).
* A Black Dress also works just like a Black Suit when there's a CIA raid (Black Dresses already worked at the Intelligence HQ as a disguise); there are female CIA operatives after all, just ask Valerie Plame (oops I just outed a CIA operative, sorry).

There are a couple other similar disguise changes like that, those are just 4 examples. All the changes were to add more acceptable disguises, I didn't remove any. Any disguises that worked in previous revisions of the game will still work.

[Elodie Hiras]

That bit about Death Squads was weird... I remember (several months back) being disguised (with a yellow color on my squad status) with a Death Squad Uniform at the AM Radio station...

Strange. Maybe it was changed, or maybe I'm having memory troubles. At any rate, the Death Squad quickly replace the police gang unit in doing street patrols when they exist, so it at least made sense...

[KA101]

OK, took care of the disguise stuff, in revision 730. Actually changed more stuff than I was originally planning on, didn't just deal with Death Squad Uniforms and SWAT Uniforms, but a bunch of other disguises now work too.

Just 4 examples of other changes:
* If you're disguised as a Hick (with Overalls or a Wife Beater) you can carry a Pitchfork or Torch around and people will think that is in character for you as a Hick.
* If the place is on fire, wearing Bunker Gear (the Firefighter disguise) is an acceptable disguise (since people will want someone to put out the fire and think you're a Firefighter who came to rescue them).
* A SEAL Suit is now an acceptable disguise wherever a Military Uniform or Army Body Armor is already an acceptable disguise (people will think you're a Navy SEAL).
* A Black Dress also works just like a Black Suit when there's a CIA raid (Black Dresses already worked at the Intelligence HQ as a disguise); there are female CIA operatives after all, just ask Valerie Plame (oops I just outed a CIA operative, sorry).

There are a couple other similar disguise changes like that, those are just 4 examples. All the changes were to add more acceptable disguises, I didn't remove any. Any disguises that worked in previous revisions of the game will still work.

Eek! at the Arch-Conservative term for tank top.

SEAL suits seem like they'd be comparable to SWAT armor?  Would expect a SEAL found at the MilBase (or the IntHQ; they ought to be rare but possible there, being specops and all) to be in uniform, not Stealth Armor.

Black Dress seems like it should be based on Womens' and/or Gay Rights.  If the MiniLuv wouldn't allow women as Agents, you probably shouldn't be able to pass yourself off as a WiB.

Thanks much, in any event.

[Liberal Elitist]

Eek! at the Arch-Conservative term for tank top.

SEAL suits seem like they'd be comparable to SWAT armor?  Would expect a SEAL found at the MilBase (or the IntHQ; they ought to be rare but possible there, being specops and all) to be in uniform, not Stealth Armor.

Black Dress seems like it should be based on Womens' and/or Gay Rights.  If the MiniLuv wouldn't allow women as Agents, you probably shouldn't be able to pass yourself off as a WiB.

Thanks much, in any event.

Heh... Wife Beater is already the term the game users for tank top, I did not introduce that term to the game or change it. If you want that changed in the game to something else such as "Tank Top" you should say so. Navy SEALs, wherever they occur in the game, wear SEAL Suits a.k.a. SEAL Stealth Armor. You can get SEAL Stealth Armor by recruiting a Navy SEAL or killing one and looting it from their corpse. So any location where people would expect to see Navy SEALs, they would logically expect to see people wearing SEAL Stealth Armor since that's what every Navy SEAL in the game wears. Black Dresses were already an acceptable disguise at Intelligence HQ (the only other one being a Black Suit), and a place with only 2 valid disguises, that's quite a low number. 1 is an even lower number, that's the number of valid disguises there were when there was a CIA raid on one of your compounds, the only valid one was a Black Suit, for some reason the Black Dress was excluded. Anyway this game is from a Liberal perspective, gender and gender identities aren't supposed to be important, Jonathan S. Fox already explained this to me in another thread. Only allowing a Black Suit and not a Black Dress, that would be a bit sexist don't you think? And that is the only place in the disguise code that shows any gender bias. Everywhere else in the disguise code, wherever there is a suit there is a dress of the same type and vice versa (the 3 types being cheap suits/dresses, black suits/dresses, and expensive suits/dresses). And female spies are quite common, ever seen a James Bond or Austin Powers movie? These changes to disguise code were to make it more consistent with the rest of the game (namely whichever file it is that specifies what armors and weapons each creature type has, I think it's creaturetypes.cpp, and whichever file specifies which types of creatures appear at which location, which I can't remember off the top of my head).

I didn't make any changes that I didn't think were appropriate and consistent with the rest of the game. And I handled Death Squad Uniforms and SWAT Uniforms following your advice (Death Squad Uniforms work for being police when the Police Behavior and Death Penalty laws are both C+, and SWAT Uniforms work for looking like police when there is high security but are only a 2nd rate disguise when there is low security, and at places where Police Uniforms and Police Body Armor only work as 2nd rate disguises, SWAT Uniforms only work as 2nd rate disguises when there's high security and don't work at all if there's low security. And I noticed you didn't complain about Firefighter-style Bunker Gear working when the place is on fire, or complain about someone disguised as a Hick being allowed to carry a Pitchfork or Torch since people would consider those weapons in-character. So at least you don't seem to have a problem with those 2 changes... anyway I thought carefully about what I was changing before I changed it and reviewed the changes carefully before committing them.

I know this is a game a lot of people like and I try to be very careful not to do anything that might be harmful to it in any way, and only make positive improvements. So anyway, thank you for your contributions to the game too KA101, I know you did the maps, that was really great, they are quite good maps. I'll be going on a vacation to Europe in about a week, and I'll spend a month in places like Vienna and Rome where I don't speak the language, and I won't do ANY programming while I'm gone since I'm not taking my main desktop computer, just a little laptop maybe. If there's any changes I made to the code that people think are horrible and want to undo, you can undo all of them while I'm off in Europe and I probably won't even have Internet over there or if I do I'll probably be spending my time doing other things than going online anyway... have fun while I'm gone. I WILL be back sometime in mid-to-late October though...

[nephilimnexus]

It is also possible to recruit conservatives if you have high enough persuasion.  Normally that isn't ideal because their wisdom and heart will be wrong but if you are going for violence that won't be too big a problem for you.

Date & Switch works even better, because then you can beat the Wisdom out of them once they're in your clutches.