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[Vector]

No, seriously, this is important: I need to learn how to draw.

However, I usually see the advice to "just go draw things."  This is not what I want to do, since I have done that for a great many years and the results have been... not fabulous.  I am pretty convinced, at this point, that I just don't see things the right way.  So--does anyone have a more systematic suggestion, where we learn in terms of simple cumulative exercises or something and it's more clear as to what we're going for at each step?  I don't have a problem with imagination, I've got a problem with technical skills, and "just go and flail around" really doesn't help that much with those.

And it doesn't help much to just be told "draw something and we'll criticize the snot out of you," since I know I'm not very good artist, and being told "look at how WRONG you are and how much BETTER my stuff is, just imitate what you like" has never done much for me.  I have tried it more than a couple of times, though.

So.  Tl; dr: does anyone have access to resources that teach drawing in the same way that one teaches math, music, or programming?

[freeformschooler]

"look at how WRONG you are and how much BETTER my stuff is, just imitate what you like"

That's pretty much never the kind of constructive criticism you get on here. That sounds more like how your insecurities are skewing it. It's more "hey, see these 15 things you could do better? Let me show you how to do those better. Ask if you don't understand."

[Vector]

You know, that really hasn't been my experience here at all.  Things may have changed, but last time I tried there was some rather mean commentary about my not even having any idea about how female bodies look.

That's why I'm asking for some sort of, as I said, thing that works to reconcile knowledge with practice in a coherent way.

[freeformschooler]

You know, that really hasn't been my experience here at all.  Things may have changed, but last time I tried there was some rather mean commentary about my not even having any idea about how female bodies look.

That's why I'm asking for some sort of, as I said, thing that works to reconcile knowledge with practice in a coherent way.

Yeah, I know. I saw that. That's why I'm saying your insecurities are skewing it.

You don't have to tiptoe on eggshells and avoid naming names. You posted a drawing of a girl that you drew not from real life experience but rather from your limited understanding of anatomy and form to a thread specifically for constructive criticism. Just because you understand how female bodies work in a biological or visual level doesn't mean you understand them from an artistic perspective without using a bunch of anatomical references while drawing. If you posted that to the AC in the penny arcade forum, you'd get the same response, but it wouldn't be from lordnincompoop, it would be from a ton of people at once.

That's just How It Is. If you don't understand how something works, you're expected to actually go out and figure it out. There are a few ways about this.

1) You go to a figure drawing class or similar thing. I don't have the money or time for this, so I instead:
2) Draw people "as they are" (difficult with my motor impairment) or
3) Have someone pose for you for less than a class costs or
4) Do self-portraits. I've been doing these a lot lately and it's really difficult and humbling, but I'm learning fast.

The absolute last resort is to draw from a non-real-life reference. I haven't done much of this, but it seems more difficult than something I can easily turn a little bit to get a better understanding of.

Sorry, but I was there during the event you're oh-so-subtly referencing and that reaction is pretty standard. It happened to me when I posted some bullshit in the EG from my limited anatomical understanding, and I'm glad it did, because it set me on a path to improvement.

[GlyphGryph]

I am pretty convinced, at this point, that I just don't see things the right way.

This is always how it is. It's why the good suggestions aren't just "draw" things, and why art classes don't have you just "draw" things - they have you draw simple things, in a variety of situations, because those things aren't hard to draw but to get them right you need to be able to see.

It's like learning math from scratch - you're not going to master it by simple solving problems (although solving problems, especially difficult ones, and analyzing what you're doing is vitally important to progression).

What you should do is try to tackle one part at a time, and draw things from life to try and get it down. Try to figure out how to draw that particular thing so it looks on paper the way it looks in real life. Take a picture, if it will help. There's significant value to trying to just recreate another artists image as well - find someone you like, especially someone who does straightforward line drawings, and analyze it. Then try to recreate it. Compare the differences, and try to figure out why they are different. Follow another artist (webomics are good for this) and compare their earliest work to their latest work - why is their new work better? Spend some time actually looking, closely, and try to figure out why you think so.

Now, find a medium that you like, and learn it - like a programming language, starting with one to get the basics is a good idea. If you're doing pencil and paper, learn about different pencil widths and hardnesses. Look up technical hints for drawing with pencil, and the effect that you get with different leads. Compare different papers - dissect it. Draw shapes and scribbles and just figure out the difference between different lines and values. Preferably, adopt a medium in line with the artist you selected above, and try to emulate their work - at least for a while, try to duplicate their pieces exactly, copying their style and just making duplicates of their pieces on your own - this will help you work at seeing, and learn how to recreate their lines and shapes in a static environment. Pay attention to details, like line width and tangents! If this is proving difficult, spend some time just trying to recreate the outline, and work the details in later. When you're just starting, you want to learn how to move your pencil/pen/cursor to recreate the lines you are actually seeing. Do so studiously.

Lots of people say to draw from life, and I think that's certainly useful, but I don't think you need to start there - I certainly didn't. I'm not a great artist, but I think the most important thing is to have fun with your lines. Keep things simple at first, avoid details, aim for broad strokes and try to capture what's REALLY important.

[Vector]

It may surprise you to learn this, freeformschooler, but I wasn't actually referencing that event, subtly or unsubtly.  My family is chock-full of artists.  You know, people who are at the level where they do exhibitions in galleries and things like that.  Win competitions, have their little studios, whatever.  I have spent my entire life submitting my "artwork" to criticism, whether written or drawn.  I have boxes of crap out in the garage.  There's a huge amount of pressure in my family to be good, and to be good in a particular sort of way.  They honestly also just kind of hate me as a person and took those criticism opportunities to let me know that, so I finally just gave up and did math because I couldn't take it anymore.  It may also surprise you to hear that my skills have deteriorated over the years.  I used to be a lot better (well, from my perspective.  I'm pretty sure you and LNCP would still hate it), but--like I said--got scared, gave up.

Maybe my insecurities are skewing things, but I also know that I am tired as fuck of making myself vulnerable like this.  So I'm asking if there's another way, so I can figure out what people consider the facets of realism and then adopt or discard as I choose, practice what I will, have a clue as to what modern perspective techniques are and just have a prayer of enjoying myself in any way rather than the way I feel, which is: "I made it.  Therefore it sucks."  I don't get any pleasure at all out of making things anymore because all I can hear is that chorus of endless, unnuanced negativity.

And no, I'm not overreacting.  They're abusive shitheads and one of the way they abuse people is through criticizing them personally through criticizing their art.

So I'm trying to get some distance from that, because I could see something I drew and if someone else had only drawn it, I would feel pretty good about it, have some things I thought were cool, probably say "hey, change up your poses a bit and maybe rethink some of the proportions but I like your character design and the way you do hair."  But because I drew it I automatically hate it, and I can't get any better when I hate everything I make axiomatically.

I realize that there may be a meme around here that I'm prideful and arrogant, but the truth is that I hate pretty much everything that leaves my fingertips almost immediately, and want to destroy it if I ever look at it again.  Well, I don't just want to destroy it, I usually do.  I've just gotten good enough at some things that I don't have to look at it twice.

[freeformschooler]

It may surprise you to learn this, freeformschooler, but I wasn't actually referencing that event, subtly or unsubtly.  My family is chock-full of artists.  You know, people who are at the level where they do exhibitions in galleries and things like that.  Win competitions, have their little studios, whatever.  I have spent my entire life submitting my "artwork" to criticism, whether written or drawn.  I have boxes of crap out in the garage.  There's a huge amount of pressure in my family to be good, and to be good in a particular sort of way.  They honestly also just kind of hate me as a person and took those criticism opportunities to let me know that, so I finally just gave up and did math because I couldn't take it anymore.  It may also surprise you to hear that my skills have deteriorated over the years.  I used to be a lot better (well, from my perspective.  I'm pretty sure you and LNCP would still hate it), but--like I said--got scared, gave up.

Maybe my insecurities are skewing things, but I also know that I am tired as fuck of making myself vulnerable like this.  So I'm asking if there's another way, so I can figure out what people consider the facets of realism and then adopt or discard as I choose, practice what I will, have a clue as to what modern perspective techniques are and just have a prayer of enjoying myself in any way rather than the way I feel, which is: "I made it.  Therefore it sucks."  I don't get any pleasure at all out of making things anymore because all I can hear is that chorus of endless, unnuanced negativity.

Uh... what? When you said you got some really mean feedback "here," you specifically talked about your experience with an event on the forums, and that's the only time I've ever seen you try to get art criticism from the forums here, but now you're saying you weren't referencing an event on here but rather a long history of stuff with your family? I'm confused?

As a side-note, the whole thing about prideful and arrogant is exactly what makes people like us hate everything we do. I hate everything I do, too. It's because we have such a poisonous slurry of bloated ego and internal criticism that we're rarely able to create something that matches any kind of standard we hold ourselves to, even if other people will never be as critical of us as we are. When someone does criticise us, it only reinforces those high standards and makes that little voice in our heads that says "nope, you'll never be able to make something as good as your standards" sound a little bit louder. It's a lot like masochism but with learning.

[Vector]

The word "forum" does not appear in the OP.  I wasn't talking about my experiences on the forums, I was talking about my experiences as a human being who has been unsuccessfully drawing, making pottery, and generally crafting shit for her entire life.

I do feel like the specific criticism of "you don't know what the female body looks like" is a pretty mean thing to say to a woman, but maybe in art lingo "looks like" means "can draw."  The rest of it didn't seem mean.  I just couldn't handle it or do anything useful with it.

[freeformschooler]

Oh, just a miscommunication, then. I said "on here" (generally known to mean on this place on the internet), you said "that hasn't been my experience here at all," we both said here, you know how it goes.

Anyway, as another fun reference, PlutoniumApe, who is a far better artist than I, swears by the 30-second drawings on posemaniacs. It seems so damned fast, but who knows, maybe that's the point and it's supposed to help.

And yes, "don't know what it looks like" is pretty much just a more demeaning form of "can't draw it" in art lingo. It's not constructive criticism.

[Tiruin]

-snippety snip-

Heyo Vector!

In learning how to draw, I'll ask one thing before the rest: Do you know how your affinity works in aesthetics? As in, how you learn things--hands-on work?

Is your goal on realistic art down to the exact detail or are there minor details which you know you're missing that you're asking a solution for? Realism? Abstract? Or learning how to draw in general?

Because from my opinion, we can't appropriately suggest an exact method of learning how to draw due to relativity with the learning process..and the specific goal. While using the notion of comparing would probably help, I'm getting the gist that this is about a personal art style than not.

[zombie urist]

Drawing has multiple components and since I haven't seen your art and you haven't mentioned a specific problem I don't know exactly what you need help with.

Here's some basic things that might help in general.
Draw a bunch of circles of different sizes.
Draw a bunch of long straight lines.
Get some wooden shapes, place them and draw those.
Do self portraits.

Getting good at sketching (no color) can help recognize values later.

[Vector]

Here's some basic things that might help in general.
Draw a bunch of circles of different sizes.
Draw a bunch of long straight lines.
Get some wooden shapes, place them and draw those.

Yes, good.  This sort of thing is helpful.

Tiruin, I want basic exercises that will help me get some more control and help me with the nitty-gritty thinking process.  Since I have not ever done any of these kinds of things, I really just want something where I can go "THIS IS GOOD" or "DUDE THIS IS NOT GOOD" with no or little artistic attachment.  Technical stuff!  Not "here I am putting my heart out there" things.

[Tiruin]

Ah. Basic exercises

What ZU suggested is the core principle--the basics of drawing lies in hand control and how you do your linework. Save shading for later (which usually goes along how hard you press down on that pencil) and focus firstly on the basic shapes, like drawing a person.

When it comes down to it, most drawn things are just basic shapes with added details. Tree branches are tubes, human-figures are circles, ovals and curves which are finished with connections like the joints and such.

Starting off with sketching is the best thing to do, to learn the basics. Draw freely, and don't mind any comparison to anything--analyze your own work, and compare it in itself. Every drawing has its basis, even abstract art, and most beginners use something to compare with and try to copy it, beginning with outlining and getting the shape right.

But maybe it's in the perspective that I'm getting the question from...and I may be rambling up here.

[Pnx]

I didn't used to be able to draw, until this summer, I learnt so frigging much about drawing in my summer course. Being taught a lot of the theory behind drawing was tremendously helpful to me, and in combination with that, and having a teacher to nudge me along and point out things I didn't realise I was doing badly, I learnt a pretty crazy amount about drawing for someone who had never really done it before. It's... pretty hard to just describe it without being able to show it to you, but I think I can provide some good advice.

There's several things it's important to understand.

First of all there's many different styles and methods behind art, even just within the context of drawing with a pencil. There's more photorealistic styles, and there's more impressionistic styles. But in all cases it's important to understand that art is all about creating an illusion.

Say you're looking at a tree through a window, you see it's greens and it's browns and all it's shades. Then where you see these colours on the window you paint them, and you do it so finely that when you're looking at it from the right perspective, you can't tell the drawing is even there. Now imagine the tree doesn't even exist.
This is what you're generally trying to accomplish with drawing, you're trying to create the illusion of something being beyond the paper. Now there's much more realistic illusions, and much more simplistic illusions, but it's not necessarily a bad drawing if it doesn't reflect reality very well. You would not consider a typical comic to be a realistic drawing, but it's honestly not supposed to be.

Secondly, I recommend learning to draw by drawing from real life, it doesn't have to be portraits of people, objects work too, though I found my self portrait to be very enlightening (though at first I hated it). You can also do it based off of photographs or such if you want to draw something you don't have readily available, but I think I recommend this less, you can't really move around and get a feel for the dimensions in the same way.

I also really don't recommend trying to draw imagined things at first. Fact is you probably don't understand the way things are structurally, and how to draw them nearly well enough to pull this off, and you'll just wind up getting frustrated because it still doesn't look right and you don't know why. You should probably leave that sort of thing off until you have a good grasp of the real world. The one exception for this is probably perspective drawings, they drove everyone else in my class nuts, but I loved them, and could do them very naturally (because I have a good head for spaces), I suspect given your background and personality you'll be the same.

The third bit of advice I have is simple. Don't worry too much about ruining your drawings, you learn the most when you're doing things wrong. Every failure is a potential success if you take the time to learn from it.
Be patient, it often takes a long time to do a good drawing, even if you're very good at it.

Also keep in mind there's a hell of a lot of ways to draw things, and a lot of different styles. All typically arranged on a scale from "realistic" to "impressionistic".

I think I'll post a picture of my perspective drawing of a church, and tell you a bit about it, hopefully sometime tomorrow I think.

[GlyphGryph]

Yes, good.  This sort of thing is helpful.

Yet despite providing plenty of actionable, basic exercises, I get ignored! *grumpy face*