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Author Topic: Fifty States, Equal Populations?  (Read 2992 times)

mainiac

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2013, 08:28:16 pm »

I'd also like to point out that the senate is supposed to be non-representative of the population's demographics on purpose. Basically it's supposed to be a compromise that lets the less populated states still have a significant say in the nation's politics.

Yes that was the intention of people two centuries ago who were in a vastly different situation.

Fun fact: there was a proposal during the drafting of the constitution that the original 13 states should always have at least half the representatives in the house of representatives.  IIRC, it failed by 1 vote.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2013, 08:42:41 pm »

The Senate wasn't for the less populated states, it was for the states themselves. That is why it was elected by the states instead of the people. It functioned as the American counterpart to the House of Lords as the House of Representatives did to the House of Commons.

At this point I'd be fine with a unicameral legislature, so long as it came along with other significant electoral reforms. And at least finance-wise, such reforms would have popular support.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2013, 10:30:04 pm »

I can't help but feel this would give the Democrats an untouchable Senate majority, maybe even a supermajority, and with it the White House. But that's just a gut feel. Atlanta, Houston, Trinity, Chinati, possibly Ogallala, Phoenix and Shiprock- all new blue or swing states carved out of old red or swing ones. Several low-population red states get swallowed up- Utah, Montana (though it's swing, really), Wyoming, Idaho, and the Dakotas have a combined 12 senators under the normal system. Under the new map, they have four. Alaska disappears into the Seattle metro area. California gets carved up into six states, most of which are now blue.

This will be slightly balanced out, of course- North Carolina's emerging swing status will be delayed as it gets carved into three and lumped in with rural parts of other states. But this would be a boon to the Democrats, all told.
The elections would just become between the Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Democrats, everything would be the same.

misko27

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2013, 11:22:32 pm »

I can't help but feel this would give the Democrats an untouchable Senate majority, maybe even a supermajority, and with it the White House. But that's just a gut feel. Atlanta, Houston, Trinity, Chinati, possibly Ogallala, Phoenix and Shiprock- all new blue or swing states carved out of old red or swing ones. Several low-population red states get swallowed up- Utah, Montana (though it's swing, really), Wyoming, Idaho, and the Dakotas have a combined 12 senators under the normal system. Under the new map, they have four. Alaska disappears into the Seattle metro area. California gets carved up into six states, most of which are now blue.

This will be slightly balanced out, of course- North Carolina's emerging swing status will be delayed as it gets carved into three and lumped in with rural parts of other states. But this would be a boon to the Democrats, all told.
The elections would just become between the Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Democrats, everything would be the same.
No, see, this is wrong. It is, as we have seen through Gerrymandering, incredibly easy to sideline a group entirely. It would be the near versus the far left, at most, and that's not nearly the same. It's true that eventually, given time with no changes, population fluctuations and demographics undermine the prevalent power base in a area (That's why the period immediately after Gerrymandering sucks, while immediately before it is not so bad.). But even in the short term,It is essential to all involved however, that a large undisputed not be allowed to occur at the level which marginalized minority.


The entire purpose of the Founding Fathers was to prevent anything from becoming so powerful as to run rampant with it's power. In and of that, they are successful as all hell. Crab mentality was their design. James Madison wrote in the 51st of the Federalist Papers:"Ambition must be made to counteract ambition. Further, as Madison wrote in the Federalist 10, a majority would be the most dangerous of all factions that might arise, for the majority would be the most capable of gaining complete ascendancy. Or, simply put, as he said it, If the political society were very extensive, however, and embraced a large number and variety of local interests, the citizens who shared a common majority "must be rendered by their number and local situation, unable to concert and carry into effect their schemes of oppression".

So to mess with it would be messing with a system that thus far, hasn't fallen to a single interest. The Founders were right here, as much as I support the democrats, I'd hate to see what might happen left to their own devices. It's easy for a single power to enter in, take over the party, and put a stranglehold, through it, on all of America. With What we have now, that' completely impossible.


But of course, these are idle calculations.I don't like the map because New York would literally have to give up one of the five Boroughs to fit as even 1 state. There's a little too much enforcement of population restrictions per-state and not enough of common interest, which is what presumably a redesign would want to accomplish.


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10ebbor10

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2013, 01:12:07 am »

A Single power hasn't taken hold yet?

I mean, you got 2 parties which are, at several points fairly identical, rely on corporate sponsors for their investments, and thanks to the divide between house and senate, can decide to boycott each proposal of the other party till they get what they want.
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pisskop

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2013, 01:15:39 am »

Its a puppet show!
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gimlet

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2013, 01:20:12 am »

Why tinker with an obsolete system, just let corporations select representatives directly instead of wasting everyone's time with the current window dressing...
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pisskop

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2013, 01:24:32 am »

One hypothesis is this.  As city-states became empires and empires monarchies, the shift to information/technology will leave actual governments behind, seeing corporations (some of which already produce more than whole sovereign countries) take unabashed power.

I for one support the ones using zombie-virii.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2013, 08:47:20 am »

Wait, there's an electable contingent of far-left politicians in the U.S.? When did this happen? Last I saw, people espousing the same policies as '80s Republicans were being called socialists.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2013, 09:18:06 am »

Alright, I'm getting a little tired of the whole "US only has a right wing lol" jerk, which has no appreciation of context or history. Both the far-right and far-left of the US are contained within a small geographic area, as extreme politicians are likely to be. Almost-actual-socialist-democrats in New England and the Tea Party in the Deep South are on the fringe.

The Tea Party just gets more media attention, and really, how couldn't they? They're boisterous as hell. Their perception is warped beyond what normal people consider rational politics. Oh, and there's the small matter of everybody else hating them.
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Willfor

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2013, 09:27:35 am »

Wait, so I can finally propose something nearly akin to socialism in America with a random sampling of Americans around and not have the entire discussion completely derailed, and then promptly get laughed out of the country?

Because the jerk ain't stopping 'til we can do that.
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Owlbread

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2013, 09:32:56 am »

The thing is that what's considered "extreme" in the USA is quite different to what's considered extreme elsewhere in the world. Mainstream politics in the USA is chiefly right-wing (i.e. centre-right or right), so the Democrats are close to our own Conservative Party with some Lib Dem leanings/behaviour, we don't really have a Republican equivalent. They also have some fairly left-wing pressure groups within them, rather like our own Labour Party.

To Europeans and most of the world (and if you cut out the bullshit like "oh what's left and right is subjective", then how does political science even work if we're going to have to take every country's culture into account?) American politics is mainly right-wing, that's why people often make inaccurate comments like there is only a right-wing. It's the dominant wing, certainly, but it's not the only one.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 09:34:56 am by Owlbread »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2013, 09:37:44 am »

Wait, so I can finally propose something nearly akin to socialism in America with a random sampling of Americans around and not have the entire discussion completely derailed, and then promptly get laughed out of the country?

Because the jerk ain't stopping 'til we can do that.
Then maybe you should stop listening to what media corporations and uncited internet poliscis tell you to believe, and consider some of the hard data on the subject.

And hell, that's just on the word socialism, which for having been dragged through the mud for three generations still retains decent support. That's not even getting into all the number of extremely popular programs that would be considered socialist if assessed without bias. Need I remind you of possibly the greatest rule in all of American politics "touch Social Security and die"? Or pretty much everything relating to the military's social programs? Or welfare? People bitch about welfare all the time (in that way it is almost the mirrored twin of social security, in that everyone hates it but nobody will get rid of it), and the Republicans would certainly like to kill it dead, but it's not going away.

As I said before, there is almost never any appreciation of history or context when it comes to this.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 09:39:53 am by MetalSlimeHunt »
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Dutchling

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2013, 12:38:44 pm »

posting to fuck
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WealthyRadish

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Re: Fifty States, Equal Populations?
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2013, 02:46:57 pm »

So states and their populations. How 'bout them?
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