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Yas pls, for extra epicness and plot and FEF1 lore connections!

Nah, we had enough and this game should end with Julius' coronation.

[Xanmyral]

Yeah, there was some errors, I fixed them. I had nine stuck in my head for some reason with the soldier.

Putting lower progression in Def means that a soldier who put seventy and the knight with fifty hit the cap at the same time roughly, further lessening the starting advantage the knight had.

A soldier can skip nullify and instead get another skill, maybe blossom to make up for the extra def progression spent.

[Rolepgeek]

Yes, they will hit the same stat cap. That's going to happen, and yes, maybe, just maybe, a soldier is better at tanking in some ways than a Knight, towards late game. But late game isn't everything.

Hold the Line is better area denial. Great Knights are more mobile in some ways than Nomad Rangers.

Plus, if you go General, they both have the same Move. And being weak to a select set of weapons brings up another point; Soldiers can't get access to swords, meaning axes can almost always put a chink in their day(unless they get Axereaver, of course). Great Knights can.

And so the soldier can take a different skill. The skills aren't usually that great unless they help your build immensely (like Nullify) or you build yourself around them (like Imbue or Center). Being smart about it can make the weakness to Armorbane negligible simply by not letting enemies with those weapons hit you, just like mounted units have to deal with all the time. I'm of the mind to make an Imbue Knight, in fact; sure, it eats away at a little of my progression, but a self-sustaining tank is pretty nice. Give me an archer or two with longbows and we can Hold The Line all day long.

[Powder Miner]

I do want to say that turning Armoured from an asset to a liability without reimbursing the class was probably not the wisest idea for balanced.

[Xanmyral]

Yeah, maybe I am looking too much to late game, but it shouldn't be ignored just because it's late game. That doesn't mean it can't be balanced or shouldn't be looked at, specially in these large games where we will hit late game. To only balance for the start is to play into a folly, but it is the same that the opposite is just as true.

Hold the Line is a wonderful skill, no doubt, and its a big reason to be a knight. I fear that it may just be the only reason is all. A knight is suppose to be a class that can laugh off melee attacks, they do, but yet other classes can do it just as well without any of the problems that cone with being a knight, and in cases even better. Knights still win out at are denial hands down however, I make no bones about that.

You're very right about the swords, it's a good reason to be a great knight. It draws us back to "be a knight if you want the skill to be a great knight" as the main and only reason to be a knight however. Give armored (or some approximate, weaker skill) back and then there is a good reason to be a knight if you want to tank.

All of the below is true, but there is still advantage in not needing nullify in the first place. One could instead get Guard, or Blossom, maybe Fortune to help the character guard others better, be better, or take hits better.

Overall, I agree with what you said in the most part, but I fail to see how it is any different than what I've been saying earlier. Unless you want hold the line, or be a great knight, there's sadly little reason that I see to be a knight in a game that hits promotions.

[Rolepgeek]

Oh, I agree. But it's certainly not useless.

Though, as it was, Armoured may have been a bit too strong. Especially at lower levels, for the same reason Knight is useful at them...

I liked the idea about it being the tens digit of their HP, though.

Aye. As I was typing it up I realized that and was getting annoyed because of it.

But yeah, late game I agree is fairly important, but also...how often are you going to see enemies with armorbane weapons?

I do think Knights need something back, and I just happen to like them enough to see reason to play them anyway(though my experience in NEF1 tells me that perhap Javelins are better than Pilums...), despite the setbacks given them. If I run a real FEF game, rather than just FFT like I'm hoping to for the moment, I'll have my own list of changes.

I have to wonder how much Haspen had played with this set of rules before he made the adjustments, though. Simply because it doesn't seem like it came out too long ago, and he should know about balance, so we're probably missing something fairly large beyond Hold The Line and Great Knight.


ANYWAY. So, Fighter-> Forest Knight or Knight->Great Knight?(we don't need and I don't really want two Soldiers. Plus, I'd need the higher DEF to make up for not being here since Trainee class and such. Damn you Leo.)

Fighter only has like 3 base defense before giving him a boost...

[SeriousConcentrate]

y damn meh ;_;

[Rolepgeek]

U makes me inferiorer. With your giant DEF and HP...

[Xanmyral]

I like knights too, even if nothing changes I'll still try to play one eventually. I just feel that knight, as is, are too penalized. Maybe give some approximate of armored back, or the guard skill for free, something.

Personally I'd be interested in seeing a forest knight, we've never had one and it would be neat to see. Their trap ability looks good for locking down enemies for a short while too.

A great knight is good in my opinion, you can cover every weapon and have good mobility. Birdy would be happy about another mounted unit as well, he has a PS that activates when around them. Mounted action economy is great too, even if you can't do the silly stuff that you could in FEF 1.

Trust me, Leo won't be showing you up in tanking. He's tanky, but that's not his job. He needs to be running about when we need someone who can stay put.

[Blade Master Model 42]

U makes me inferiorer. With your giant DEF and HP...

There's an innuendo there, but I can't seem to find it.

[birdy51]

I heard my name. O.o

More horse mounted units would be fine with me indeed.

[SeriousConcentrate]

I agree with Xan. Even if knights suxxor I still want to play one... although hopefully when I do whoever is running the FEF I use him in will let me swap lances for swords. :3 I think a Great Knight would be good. You can Hold the Line in one place, then if you need to, break away and Hold somewhere else.

@Blade: If you want priestly innuendo, go talk to lawastooshort. He has a TON of it. XD

[Blade Master Model 42]

but you need to spend all your move to hold the line.

[SeriousConcentrate]

I meant more of a 'next turn because you actually have the mobility to get somewhere', Blade. Knights are notoriously immobile.

[Xanmyral]

@Role: How are pilums? I've been wanting to see how they work ever since I saw them. Did you not have enough STR to do good damage with them?

[Rolepgeek]

Oh I did, the problem was I couldn't do enough to the important enemies, and did almost too much to the others. I could nearly two-shot mages, but archers and soldiers took like 4-6 damage. In all honesty, I was probably fine in terms of damage, it just felt like it wasn't much, probably because Haspen made approximately 80% of the enemies axe-wielders. >.>