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[Elfeater]

You realize 4000 men is EASILY enough to hold a city. Jerusalem was held effectively for a good amount of time with the same amount. Sure they lost in theend, but how will you feed your armies? It was common for when peasants fled, they would take what they could carry, and urn the rest. So you will have one hell of a time scavenging effectively. Plus they are nomads, what is a city worth to them? And for attacking a city, cavalry will have to become dismount to scale the walls, not to mention I don't think you would know how to make complicated siege machinery. So you would be forced to attack a target essentially useless to you,take losses because you have to attack the walls, on foot, enmasse, and are not trained for such a thing. Your forces would lose.

[Harbingerjm]

Be shot how? Even at max range the horsemen can sit even further out and just leave some mobile scouts nearby. Your odds of a long range hit on a moving scout are slim to none and they'll still see if anybody comes out in time to warn the main force to ride you into the ground, if you try to get food in from outside they have to get past the cavalry, doubtful without multiple well armed regiments which you don't have. Try to get out to forage? You've got under half a mile where you have reasonable safety. Not even close enough to feed 4000 soldiers for long let alone a city. Try to go further out and cannons lose accuracy and a fast moving mobile army will sweep over you.

You realise this is a port city, right? Combine that with the fact that the 17000 are nomads and can't all be available for war anyway, and a siege is nowhere near a good idea for them.

[Patrick Hunt]

(( Why not? The entire mongol nation went to war, they can live anywere they need to. The entire clan down to the babies can be moved to go to war if they choose to do so they just graze them over a wider area and use scouts to warn them of enemy force before they can arrive and flaming arrows will make a good mess of boats. A mobile cavalry force could ride in and burn boats as they attempt to get inside. Some would die but they can afford to lose a few hundred men to prevent you getting supplies unles the city is incrediblt well designed and even then the ships are vulnerable.

Oh and also, how exactly are you going to pay for enough supplies to feed the entire city and the army, you'd go bankrupt in less then a year while the tribes graze across your lands destroying it. You've then got 1 of the 2 things. Either your people outside the city are slaves working to feed there new masters. Or you have an over crowded city which will quickly result in disease and starvation. Neither option is good for you.

Besides which Jerusalem was held by knights with superior equipment and superior training to an enemy thats force was largely untrained and pore armed.

The horse tribes are made up of almost entirely proffesional soldiers who's equipment matches your own. Most of the advantage the defenders had in Jerusalem does not apply here.

But I'm looking more at the dice then anything else as the saying goes. The attackers can fail many times and still win, the defenders only have to fail once. If you lose the walls your hopes of victory go to almost 0.
Looking at the odds and not including real world examples that have no meaning in an RTD game that is not run on a complicated logic system your odds of winning with 4000-4500 men are slim.

Possible, but slim.

[Elfeater]

You realize the port is behind walls? Meaning we will be more easily supplied with food? And the Saracens were not badly equipped and poorly trained. And only 60 of the men there at Jerusalem were knights. This is a fight you would be hard pressed to win,and the nomads would not even consider it. Castles and fortified towns were not death traps. They were fortresses, your people fight on plains, in the open, you have o experience with this type of warfare.

[Patrick Hunt]

You can't afford to sustain your population for even a year. With no taxes coming in from the land how will you pay other nations for food and for transports to bring it to you? My population alone needed more then 3 ducats for 1 season. Yours is far bigger.

The tribes can live off the lands forever. You'll starve in a couple of seasons. They don't need to beat you in battle all they have to do is wait. You can't out last a nomadic nation.

[Harbingerjm]

The tribes can live off the lands forever. You'll starve in a couple of seasons. They don't need to beat you in battle all they have to do is wait. You can't out last a nomadic nation.

Um. No, no they really can't.

Why not? The entire mongol nation went to war, they can live anywere they need to. The entire clan down to the babies can be moved to go to war if they choose to do so

Well hell, if you think moving that many usually-enemy tribes together in a small area is a good idea, good for you.

[Elfeater]

My population alone needed more then 3 ducats for 1 season. Yours is far bigger.

17000. You have about 1500 total.
Plus they all have horses. They cant live off our lands. Why would they want to? they have perfectly good grasslands. Unless... of course, there was a tribe who was trying to damage their friendship, and a certain King sheltered him. Now, THAT nation might be invaded. Just raids and burning, no need for a siege. They dont care about cities.

[TCM]

((I think it's a bad example to compare your forces to the Mongol Empire, who were finally repelled by the Chinese, not because the Chinese had an exponentially larger defense force, but because the Chinese had cannons and walls.

Besides which Jerusalem was held by knights with superior equipment and superior training to an enemy thats force was largely untrained and pore armed.

((Which Siege of Jerusalem are we talking about here? When the Crusaders were defending it, they were fighting the Muslim Knights of Saladin, who were among the best equipped and professional soldiers in the medieval ages. In fact, the Knights and Christians were technologically inferior to the advances of the Muslim world. And Saladin won.))

((
But I'm looking more at the dice then anything else as the saying goes. The attackers can fail many times and still win, the defenders only have to fail once. If you lose the walls your hopes of victory go to almost 0.
Looking at the odds and not including real world examples that have no meaning in an RTD game that is not run on a complicated logic system your odds of winning with 4000-4500 men are slim.

I've got the impression from Ghazkull that the Game Logic is just as important as the dice. In a regular strategy RTD, dice wouldn't have me caught in an abortion dilemma.

[Terenos]

Im gonna spell this out for you simply Patrick Hunt.

My people are safe. 100% safe(Barring further developments). Want to know why? Because I'm not sheltering you. The only information you have is that the great tribes of the Horse People plan to bring war against whatever Stone People shelter YOU. Since you're not welcome in my lands, why would they bother?

Furthermore where are you even getting this # of 17,000 from? From what I see, there are 7 thousand (Skinwalkers), 4 thousand (Burnfoots) and 16 thousand, (Kalmycks.) So 27k in people. That != 17,000 troops. Well lets count troops, assuming that 1,000 clansmen is a regiment. 3 + 2 + 8, = 13, Well, thats not 17,000 troops either.
So yeah. I'll die to the horse people. Sure. I believe that. Which is why I'm absolutely desperate and begging for aid. [/sarcasm]

[Elfeater]

My people are safe. 100% safe

Well... yeah! You have me!

[Ghazkull]

They are by and large Right Patrick.

The Horse Tribes lack Siege Engines.

A Few Fire arrows don't incinerate Ships.

It's a port City which can endlessly supply itself with Fish.
A moving small Fishing Boat is about as good a target as a riding horseman.

The oh so good bows of your cavalry requires you to get in close and personal to do any damage. Close and Personal enough to be in the range of Taricus Artillery. Which uses Grapeshots(Basically Cannon-Sized Shotguns) which should prove pretty effective against the Cavalry.

Despite everything the Horse Tribes might try and charge the walls. IF they survive the initial Artillery Barrage they might make it up to the walls which puts them at an disadvantage numerically (at least until they established a foothold).

You are looking at losses around 8 to 9 thousand men (on a bad day) until you have the city under control. And then what? The Horse Tribes are nomadic, they get more out of the land by raiding the landscape.

Now not to mention that raiding Terenos is utterly illogical since he will even offer support against you. The only two(three) people needing to worry are you, Shoot and Gamerlord.

[Harbingerjm]

Now not to mention that raiding Terenos is utterly illogical since he will even offer support against you. The only two(three) people needing to worry are you, Shoot and Gamerlord.

*Cough*

[Patrick Hunt]

Ok, although getting enough fish to feed 50000+ people in a city every single day would be quite a feet unless they have about 1000 fishing ships which I highly doubt considering how far things have declined and you'd need multiple fish per person per day so they'd only need to catch about 150,000 fish every day and stil have them back to the city in time for cooking. Assuming a reasonable city population.

Although since his kingdom is allies with Shoot and I'm with shoot offering support against me does mean betraying his alliance as well and the tribes are no more likely to listen to him then they are me. The tribes do make a living by raiding everything around them.

Either way it's gonna be funny to watch.

[Ardas]

I propose to take any negotiations and disputes to IC. It will make for a livelier game and I hope tempers can be kept under control if they are acted out in character rather than taken personally in OOC.

[Patrick Hunt]

Who's taking it personally? Besides it was more me thinking about how the tribes would react and what they'd do and them responding to it.