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[_Ivan_]

My human caravans are coming in late. One season they were attacked by a number of ambushes. They would run away while the ambush was put down and come back only to have another ambush appear. Eventually they made it with no losses. I traded them a ton of goods and just as I got the message they were packing up to leave, a dwarven caravan popped up on the edge of the map. I closed the airlock and waited for the humans to pack up then let them out and let the dwarves in.

Next year the humans arrived late and caused a traffic jam in the depot when I didn't lock the dwarves out. All but 2 of the dwarven wagons were destroyed some how and there is no body willing to trade. My depot is buried in garbage I don't want and my stockpiles are overflowing. There are a good dozen dwarven merchants sitting on the edge of the map and a handful in the depot who wont trade.

I suspect this will happen every year and utterly ruin trade for me when they keep killing each other. Why are the humans appearing late and how can I fix their broken schedule?

[Di]

Just trade dwarves a ton of crap too so they'll start arriving in the late autumn.
Or seize some human crap so that they'll leave early.
Or block the entrance for their wagons.
Or build second depot for dwarves. I suppose traders will head to the depot with a shorter path to. So if you block the shortest entrance to the first depot but leave a long winding exit way the dwarves will just go to the second and humans will leave on their own without a trouble.
For bonus points you could make humans leave through caverns or via bridge connected to the map edge several z-levels above the ground. Or magma sea. Or, you know, any other passable edge tile.

[Larix]

When exactly do they show up? Humans _normally_ arrive between 10th and 20th Galena (late summer), dwarfs between 10th and 20th Timber (late autumn). Caravans also typically start packing up one month after entering the map (not reaching the depot or anything - a blocked caravan will leave after one month of unsuccessfully waiting for a path to the depot to open). Is any of them outside this frame?

In later play i find myself forced to restrict trade with humans, because they tend to carry so much trash that even packing up what they brought takes at least six weeks, putting them at risk of colliding with the dwarven caravan. You can circumvent that by unloading so much garbage on them that they take over ten weeks to pack up, i.e. they cannot finish packing before the dwarfs have all arrived at the depot. That's pretty hit-and-miss, though, trader arrival normally varies several days from year to year.

Setting up a second depot is not a good idea: wagons seem to path to the nearest depot, but traders on foot will always path to the _oldest_ allowed depot on the map.
- if wagons and traders on foot path to different depots, they will unload their stuff separately, and both groups will refuse to trade. If you subsequently forbid one of the depots, the group at that place will go to the other depot and trade there, but will leave their unloaded garbage at the original place. In addition, they'll have trouble picking up their stuff again when packing up and preparing to leave. Forbidding the depot with the previous trader group inside will usually gum up the packing routine of those as well.
- locking doors or lifting bridges to restrict access will make matters worse, because the traders on foot only check for unforbidden status and construction age of the depots, not for access. If the oldest unforbidden depot on the map is inaccessible, they simply freeze at the map edge until a path is opened or the inaccessible oldest depot is forbidden.

[AutomataKittay]

Have 5 or 6 wide path to edge of map, I've not had much issues with overlapping caravans. If there're multiple caravans sitting in trade depot, you can choose which one to trade with. I've not managed to run into issue with one packing up and another setting up, personally.

Everyone arrives pretty late in the season and takes forever to pack up even without trading to them.

I suspect the OP's problem is having only 3 wide pathway, wagons can't get past each other very easily and tend to scuttle if they get stuck too long.

[_Ivan_]

In the following year the caravans showed up on the 16'th, the 18'th and the dwarves showed up on the 16'th of timber; a month late. I don't normally check the dates, I only noticed the traffic jam. I do have a 3 wide path to the depot. I'll open it to 6 and see how things work out with them.

[_Ivan_]

Well the humans were so busy packing they forgot to leave just in time to collide with the dwarves. So the dwarves pulled in and the humans left after. The dwarves however got enough to keep them packing for 5 months. So I expect they will come in winter now. If I'm lucky.

Larix, it seems you are exactly right about humans. I didn't trade much with them in hopes they would leave sooner. They still stayed well past the next caravans arrival. Humans come in with 8 or 9 wagons compared to the 4 the dwarves brought and the dwarves brought me some steel as well. The humans didn't offer me much outside of a few new pets.

I extended the entryway to 5 spaces in width and the wagons do seem to roll in a little faster. I hope this will solve any traffic jams caused by 2 wagons heading in opposite directions.

Thanks for the help guys.

[EvilBob22]

I have an entryway like this:

Code: [Select]

     #########         #######___
     #++++++++         ++++++#___
     #++++++++         ++++++#___
     #++++++++         ++++++#___
DDDDD#+++#^#^#         ^#^+++#___
DDDDD++++^#^#^         #^#+++BBBB
DDDDD++++#^#^#   ...   ^#^+++BBBB
DDDDD++++^#^#^         #^#+++BBBB
DDDDD#+++#^#^#         ^#^+++#___
     #++++++++         ++++++#___
     #++++++++         ++++++#___
     #++++++++         ++++++#___
     #########         #######___

# = wall, + = floor, D = depot, ^ = trap, B = bridge, _ = channel

It usually works pretty well; I've seen Humans take the north route out while Dwarves take the south route in.  But, I've also seen them collide and scuttle right in front of the depot.  (Traps catch the baby snatchers taking the direct route through the middle and the checkerboard wall sections stop archer line of sight.)

[_Ivan_]

Nothing works. Nothing at all. I've tried roads, wide bridges, locking them in until they pack up fully. The dwarves, who come later than you would expect from the wiki, are meeting head to head with the humans who take FOREVER to load up and get the hell out.

You can't destroy your trade depot either. They will sit on the edge of the map and wait until they are attacked then dump their garbage in your map. All of them. They come in to join their friend in death instead of buggering off the map like sensible humans would.

I know I sound steamed. I am. I'm losing my fort to fps death because of all the pileups and scuttled wagons and I've been sitting around waiting for my dwarves to clean up rather than get on with the fort.

[smjjames]

I had this problem just now when the humans came REALLY late and took so long toi pack up that they started to actually leave just as the dwarven caravan entered the map, and now they are stuck in the wagon only entrance/exit.

[sirdave79]

I was having exactly the problems you describe in my current fort. However I do have multiple(four) depots each airlock into my perimeter wall with a pair of bridges. Now once the humans have arrived I close the outer bridge preventing access to the depot the humans have just occupied. I then open the outer gate on another airlock and keep the humans closed in until after the dwarves arrive and I lock the outer gate to the dwarves and open the outer gate for the humans allowing them to leave. After loads of grief with headbutting wagons, freezing wagons and caravans occupying 2 depots I've got the routine down now and I've successfully traded with humies and dwarves for the last few years.

O and ok keep all the depots forbidden until I'm expecting a caravan, when I will unformed a depot and open a gate to clear a path to a depot.

[smjjames]

Clever setup there, though having multiple depots would probably cause problems. I recently siezed a bit of strawberry (yeah I know, lame) to force them to leave early, and then later in autmn they STILL hadn't left and I had to deconstruct the depot to get them to leave.

The elves have failed to show up two or three times, but I think that is because sieges keep scaring them off.