Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Trapezohedron]

Yeah, people should get a chill pill. Just because we're on B12 doesn't mean we can get to act so elitist about the genre, because DF is a God game first, and a roguelike second. >.>

[miauw62]

So we should get elitist and bash other god games?

[werty892]

People are whining for no reason. Great. It has elements of Rouge. Therefore, by definition, it is like Rouge. Therefore, it is a Rougelike. Done. Stop bitching about something that does not matter.

Lawl@
1) rouge
2) Just as you don't let a knife get dull, lest it become useless, you don't let words become useless by being too broad - you tune them up periodically.
Read some Orwell. He made a lot of points about language.

Rouge. Rouge. Rougelike.

Oh my god why did I even open this thread.

Hue, spelling mistakes. It was late and I was tired. But the thing still stands.

Oh, it's this thread again. The thread wherein we all act like elitist dicks and say that any game that has better graphics than ASCII is an unworthy maintstream shitgame that uses "roguelike" to get more players.

I disagree with werty tough, I don't think Spelunky has many elements of Red in it

Spelunky seems roguelike enough to me. The only way describing it as a roguelike would be bad is if it was done as an introduction to the genre, some sort of "this is what you can expect with other roguelikes", which isn't the case.

You descend into a cavern for fuck-knows-what's reason, the levels are randomly generated and there's permadeath. You need tactics to get deeper into the dungeon/cavern/whatever. I think X's miniseries on Spelunky illustrates this, becuase they first die on the first level and eventually get deeper and deeper by learning what will get you killed and what won't.

E: Also, the Insomnia guy should get some sleep so his "reviews" are a bit less random swearing strung togheter by the name of the game and overgeneralizations.

Permadeath, Randomly generated levels, etc. Roguelikes are all based off the original, so yes, if they have elements of the game, then they are like the game.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yeah, pretty much. Generally on the side of "isn't a roguelike", though, which generates silly stuff like "not like Rogue = not roguelike". I'll admit I've never really figured out why there's such insistence on exclusion, though. Bringing more awesome games into the roguelike umbrella is pretty nice. I like seeing a little genre expansion, here and there.

I think it's basically this:

The game, Spelunky, is a pretty straightforward platformer, which isn't an insult; there are some really awesome platform games out there nowadays. The problem is labeling it a roguelike, because it just isn't. It is in no way, shape, or form a roguelike. The argument seems to be that since it has random maps, it's a roguelike-- which, ok, I have hairy legs, so I must be a badger?

You could say that Super Hexagon is a roguelike by that definition (permadeath and randomly generated levels). Which of all things is wrong and unjustifiable.

"Those filthy casuals and their filthy casual games, each of which suffer from the same problems plaguing MODERN GAMING - too easy, too flashy, too simple - are now attempting to encroach on, nay, invade our final, beautiful bastion of turn-based, difficult, complicated, adult Roguelikes. No, do not misunderstand me, lads! There are some excellent examples of each of these genres; just the other day, I sat at my tippy-tappy touch-and-writey with the new 'Roguish Legacies.' A good platformer on its own merit, but a roguelike? It is beneath the label. Truly, we of superior intelligence should not willingly spend our pounds on this filth until such time as modern game engineers are willing to cater to us higher breeds with superior games as they were in times past. Verily, the golden age of complicated, immersive, difficult video games is over."

Indeed.

I wrap up to say that, yes, Spelunky is a platformer first, roguelike second. But stop bitching about it because someone calls it that.

[Tellemurius]

Is Spelunky on roguebasin? Yes. Good enough for me. Is roguelike enough, moving on.

I think some people take the "is/isnt roguelike" thing far too seriously. Discussions moving towards Orwell suggest that to me, at least.

Yeah, pretty much. Generally on the side of "isn't a roguelike", though, which generates silly stuff like "not like Rogue = not roguelike". I'll admit I've never really figured out why there's such insistence on exclusion, though. Bringing more awesome games into the roguelike umbrella is pretty nice. I like seeing a little genre expansion, here and there.

Roguebasin is included here as a source, i can't argue with the wiki database of mostly known roguelikes. The amount of backlash to other forum users is uncalled for Lectorog.

[Anvilfolk]

Freeformschooler just won all of the internets with that post.

[miauw62]

Werty, I too was poking fun at your misspelling of "Rogue".

[Lectorog]

Seriously, that pass at Girlinhat was uncalled for.

Joining a discussion without regard for the current conversation is disrespectful and unproductive and I personally take action to discourage such behavior.

All other backlash is an attempt to get people to actually think about debate. As it stands, this is like an interactive poll, where people pop in to voice their opinions in the context of nothing else.

[GlyphGryph]

Freeformschooler just won all of the internets with that post.

How many Internets has he accumulated at this point?

Too Many

[werty892]

Werty, I too was poking fun at your misspelling of "Rogue".

BLARGH!

[Tellemurius]

Seriously, that pass at Girlinhat was uncalled for.

Joining a discussion without regard for the current conversation is disrespectful and unproductive and I personally take action to discourage such behavior.

All other backlash is an attempt to get people to actually think about debate. As it stands, this is like an interactive poll, where people pop in to voice their opinions in the context of nothing else.

Just gonna say that Penny Arcade isn't the best place to judge any opinions on, as they're rather known to be elitist who aren't educated enough to stick their noses up, generally grasping at old ideas and trying to shoehorn them against modern concept and games, and then seeming to randomly pass blame/praise.

That seems to be a valid point to the whole argument from the source of all of this mess but since you wanted to be an ass about it...

[Kvasir]

I dislike the "Who cares?" responses that pop-up and dampen conversation on this topic. The term roguelike is evolving. Talking about it may not feed our families, but when I think of something it's nice to have words for it, and nicer still when other people are able to have a similar thought after receiving my words. So, maybe we could risk trying to become more clear even if it won't so much as cure a common cold or convince the entire world instantly.

Anyway, it should simply come down to experience with Rogue and it's successors, right? If a game creates an experience similar to that group it's part of the group and stretches the definition slightly by being there. Personally, I don't find Spelunky similar to any game in that chain.

As for the article - What do we do if someone starts calling a mandarin an orange? Maybe try to show them what you'd call an orange for comparison and point out a difference or two, but IDK, I really don't care enough to do so.

[baruk]

A mandarin is what I like to call an orangelike.

[Frumple]

Anyway, it should simply come down to experience with Rogue and it's successors, right? If a game creates an experience similar to that group it's part of the group and stretches the definition slightly by being there. Personally, I don't find Spelunky similar to any game in that chain.

Roguebasin article notes the major earlier-roguelike influence as Nethack and... I'd agree, myself. I haven't actually played nethack itself much, but I have sunk some time into some of the descendants of it (Such as ZAPM) and what time I sunk into Spelunky definitely had the same sort of vibe, t'me. Somewhat paired down in content/interactions, comparatively, but better fleshed out than some of the 7dRLs I've seen.

A mandarin is what I like to call an orangelike.

I think the word they use for that nowadays is "citrus". Though, uh, from what wikipedia (and cursory searching) is saying a mandarin... is an orange? Maybe I'm missing something...

[Tilla]

http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Berlin_Interpretation
[/thread]

[freeformschooler]

http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Berlin_Interpretation
[/thread]

Notice how it's called an "interpretation" of the word roguelike. Similar to how the OP's article interpreted the word roguelike to mean specific things. Those thing may not be the things you interpret it to be (the linked RB article definitely is not what I'd consider a "roguelike." Grid-based, turn-based? Played plenty that are neither but have many of the other features. Spelunky does, too.)

For the record, I do agree that Spelunky lacks many of the restrictive rules the genre implies. But when someone says "roguelike platformer," that is exactly what I think of. I'm not expecting a turn-based, grid-based, resource-management game shaped vaguely like a platformer. I'm imagining a platformer with some features common to Rogue and its successors.