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[Imic]

Roy is right, though. If someone had at least Told Durkon, he would never have set foot in the Dwarven lands ever again for the rest of his life.

[Mathel]

That is true. Too bad his life has already ended, so it would not have mattered.

[Reelya]

But yes, I believe that prophercy is an outcome, predicted including the reaction to it, and enforced by magic.

Prophecies aren't enforced by magic, they're merely the only possible outcome of the future chain of events. Naturally, taking into account the reaction to the prophecy itself.

There's no magic forcing the thing to happen, it's just the only thing that could happen. What makes the prophecy happen is the internal logic of the chain of events, not some external force.

With prophecies in fiction, the prophecy being its own cause, is self-referential irony. It's quite possible to write prophecy tales which lack the self-refential irony part. However, those tales just didn't endure through the centuries. That's because a narrative coming around in a neat circular conclusion is just more pleasing than one that meanders without much callback to what happened before.

[Mathel]

If they are not enforced by magic, how do you explain that people seem to act stupidly when trying to break a prophercy.

Like all those people (at least 2), who knew both Durkon and the prophercy not telling him about it.
Instead, they kicked him out for no apparent reason, giving him a potential reason to come back for revenge.
As seen in Comic 1007, that is part of Undurkon's reason anyway.

[Reelya]

Because there would be no story if the recipients of the prophecy didn't react to it in the first place. There isn't any hypothesized external magic making the prophecy happen ... the whole point of ironic prophecies in fiction is that the reaction to the knowledge of the prophecy is the cause of the prophecy occuring. That's why it's ironic.

But there was a point to kicking Durkon out. The prophecy was that the next time he returned home there would be a great calamity. Given that knowledge, then they could either ignore it, assuring that the calamity happens right away, or they could delay him returning home as long as possible, by which means they ensure that the calamity is delayed as long as possible.

e.g. where you're thinking "magic" comes into it is the idea that you have multiple choices and that "no matter" what you do, the prophecy comes true. However ... the whole point is that the prophecy already takes all future decisions into account and that there's only exactly one way that things unfold. So there aren't multiple branches which all end with the prophecy being fulfilled, there's exactly one branch. Which is why no magic is needed to keep the prophecy "on the rails". There's only one possible set of rails.

[Mathel]

No, I am not talking about them being stupid to kick him out at all. That was a normal reaction.

What I am saying is that they should have told him why they are kicking him out.
And if they knew him at least as much as Roy does, then they had a reason to tell him.
It would just make it less likely that he would return, because there could be no case of falsified papers or more important reason then banishment.

That is, unless prophecies have mind altering magic within them, to enforce decisions, which will lead to it's fuifillment.

[Reelya]

Which I was pointing out isn't needed. Prophecies imply fate, which implies exactly one way things can unfold. So there's no external force needed to cause the prophecy - it's caused by the internal unfolding of events in the only way that's possible in a deterministic universe.

Basically we're talking determinism here, prophecy or not. There's no external magic needed to make determinism happen, so it's not need to "make" a prophecy happen, either.

Also, for Durkon it's mentioned that they trusted in his unerring sense of duty not to break the rule saying he was never to return home. So they had that base covered. The only reason to tell Durkon would be to make Durkon feel better. How would he feel however ... if you told him the world itself would end if he returned home? It's definitely not clear-cut that it would be preferable to tell him about this, rather than just prevent him returning. It's actually a pretty difficult ethical question.

[Helgoland]

The real question is: Why not just kill the guy? Or send him on a suicide mission or something...

e.g. where you're thinking "magic" comes into it is the idea that you have multiple choices and that "no matter" what you do, the prophecy comes true. However ... the whole point is that the prophecy already takes all future decisions into account and that there's only exactly one way that things unfold. So there aren't multiple branches which all end with the prophecy being fulfilled, there's exactly one branch. Which is why no magic is needed to keep the prophecy "on the rails". There's only one possible set of rails.

Ah, but there's a difference between 'The prophecy always comes true' and 'Things have to happen exactly one specific way'. Consider that Croesus, before embarking on his invasion of mighty Persia, went to Delphi and asked the Oracle what would happen if he went to war. He was told he would destroy a great empire. He attacked, and the prophecy came true.

[Reelya]

Dwarven honor probably. lawful good types cannot act outside their alignment, this is D&D. Could they murder Durkon given their alignment as LG clerics? That wouldn't just be outside personal alignment but going against the alignment of their deity, which is a serious realistic constraint if you were a priest in a D&D based universe.

In a deterministic universe, Croesus going to the Oracle was predetermined. The prophecy being it's own cause was predetermined as was everything unfolding from that. The prophecy was merely one link in the chain of events, but they're all part of the deterministic future.

For Croesus, when he asked the Oracle what would happen then his choice was pre-ordained. e.g. if he would lose if he went to war the Oracle would say that, meaning he wouldn't go to war, but if he would win, then the Oracle told him that. His decision to go to war was based on what the Oracle told him - but the Oracle didn't have a choice here. It could only tell him the truth - that if he went to war then he'd destroy an empire, ensuring that he did go to war. So there was no possible choice made by either the Oracle or Croesus. There was in fact only one way they could respond.

[Mathel]

No suicide missions. Heroes have a nasty habit of surviving those.
As for killing him; Yeah, but also destroy his soul, so that he can not return via True Ressurection spell.

The thing I find wierd is that at least 2 clerics (Clerics normaly having high wisdom), both of which supposedly knew Durkon would decide not to tell him. That does not seem how they would act if they were not under influence of mind affecting magic. Thus I believe that some magic was involved.

As for deterministic universe, the problem is that clerics should know how prophercies work, so if universe is deterministic, they would know it. Again, it does not explain why they did not tell him.

[Reelya]

Prophecies imply determinism, that's the whole point to them. The issue is that once you have the prophecy you can't avoid what it says, since any actions anyone takes after the prophecy is created are already factored into the prediction. However, there is only one outcome. e.g. say they could decide not to send Durkon off, then the original prophecy just wouldn't have been made, since he'd never be in the position to return as a vampire.

People decided to not tell people difficult stuff all the time, perhaps they decided it would be more cruel to tell him of the prophecy than not?

[Helgoland]

In a deterministic universe, Croesus going to the Oracle was predetermined. The prophecy being it's own cause was predetermined as was everything unfolding from that. The prophecy was merely one link in the chain of events, but they're all part of the deterministic future.

Sure, deterministic universes are deterministic. My point was that prophecies can work outside of deterministic universes as well. Consider here, for example, that Durkon not becoming part of the Order might've lead to Hel's plan going entirely unopposed, bringing doom to dwarvenkind regardless.

Maybe you've missed the point of the Croesus story: The empire he destroyed was his own - Persia utterly crushed Lydia. Regardless of who won the war, the prophecy would've come true.

[Reelya]

But I'd argue if that Durkon never entered the order then the prophecy wouldn't exist, or some entirely different prophecy would have been divined.

Also I get the irony of the Croesus story, however ... I'd argue that even though different outcomes could satisfy the literal interpretation of the prophecy, there's still only one outcome that was going to happen. e.g. it's highly implausible that there was a coin-flip which neatly resolved into exactly two possible outcomes, Lydia destroyed or Persia destroyed. That is far more unlikely than the simple determinism scenario, where he was given the prophecy, which determined his course, which determined that Lydia would be destroyed, thus informing the original prophecy.

The idea of non-deterministic prophecies would seem to only apply to prophecies which are deliberately vague, e.g. contrived cases.

Back to the point however, there's no special "magic" needed to explain how prophecies come to pass. e.g. it's not like you have a prophecy you're going to be eaten by a lion on one path, and you have a choice between left or right, and get eaten by the lion "either way". Because the prophecy already takes your choice of right or left path into account. e.g. if the lion is on the right path, and you choose to go left, then the prophecy wouldn't have been made in the first place. The prophecy itself only exists in the universe where you decided to walk on the right hand path, thus getting eaten by the lion.

[Mathel]

Reelya, do you really think that it is more cruel to tell someone that he has been prophecised to berin death and destruction to all of his people, when he next returns home, then to just kick him out for no reason at all?

Basicaly, what I am getting at is that especially if the universe is deterministic, all actions and inactions have to have a cause.

In a deterministic universe, if you know the current status of the whole universe, you could make a prediction about a future status of the universe.

But the question is, if you knew only that the prophercy was spoken and Durkon's personality as Lawful Good cleric, would you be able to predict his Master and a random other LG cleric not telling him about it?

Because while you keep saying that the universe is deterministic, you have not yet given a sufficient cause for them not to tell him.
If the universe is deterministic, there had to be one.

[Reelya]

Reelya, do you really think that it is more cruel to tell someone that he has been prophecised to berin death and destruction to all of his people, when he next returns home, then to just kick him out for no reason at all?

Dude, the guy is lawful good. "no reason" vs "because you'll genocide all Dwarfkind".

No reason might be a lot kinder.