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[All your base]

Hi all,

I am trying to piece together a strategy for protecting traders based on bits I've picked out of other threads. Something I've seen a few very indirect references to is controlling caravan spawn locations. I want to confirm this before I go off building things that might not work.

Is it in fact true that caravans will only spawn on edge tiles that have depot access (i.e. glow green when pressing shift+d)?

If so, my strategy gets a lot simpler. Mine a single three-wide tunnel to the closest map edge, build walls around the opening that allow access to the edge, and put the depot right at the other end of the tunnel. Then I can put bridges at both ends of the tunnel and around the depot to control access. If my depot is not accessible to the surface, it seems that the map squares along the edge at the end of the tunnel will be the only depot-accessible edge squares on the whole map.

Otherwise, if caravans spawn randomly it seems like my strategy needs to be much, much more complicated.

[edgefigaro]

You got it. If there is only one place the trader can spawn to reach your depot, they will always spawn there.  The controlled airlock is rather common on incredibly evil embarks.

[AutomataKittay]

They usually only spawns where there're depot access. I've had occasional caravan that will only spawn from a specific edge, for some reason. I've never worked that one out, but it's pretty easy to notice and only affects specific civs out of every other for me. It's also pretty rare, which doesn't helps figuring out why it happens.

Diplomats and liasions spawns randomly, which is pretty painful as you've probably found.

My advice would be to mine 4 or 5 tiles wide, instead, so wagon don't gets stuck as easily, and put the depot as close to the edge you're planning to channel. Wall cannot be put up within 5 tiles of the edge, but you can use raised bridge to block access more throughly. I've made closed caravan road in a few fortresses with raised bridge and paved road, it works pretty well

[All your base]

Thanks, this definitely helps!

[smjjames]

Only thing though, is that it would only work for wagons, or do elves follow the 3 tile wide wagon access spawn point as well?

[AutomataKittay]

Only thing though, is that it would only work for wagons, or do elves follow the 3 tile wide wagon access spawn point as well?

All caravans, including wagonless ones, follows the depot access path when they can. If there're no depot access path, then they'll show up wherever.

I can verify that, at least, since elves' the one that comes to trade the most for me.

[Di]

Caravans always spawn on the road if it's three-tiles wide and connects depot and map edge.

[deepdowner]

Will a road under a drawbridge get smashed?

So, can I avoid ambushes for the caravans if I dig to the map edge underground and get a depot there, with draw bridges?

[Oaktree]

That's pretty much the way to get safe caravan access.  Tunnel that surfaces close to edge and then walled in with raised bridges doing the role of wall for the areas close to the edge that you cannot build walls.  Pave that area to prevent trees growing that could block access.  And roof it as well to keep the flyers out.

Some goblins might spawn right there and "discover" the tunnel, so it does need some animal detectors or patrols since traps block wagon access.  A couple of drawbridges can be installed if you feel the need to seal it off.

And I prefer to locate the Trade Depot just off my main stairs with a trade goods storage area there.  Shorter hauling for my dwarves that way.

One thing to note is that the non-wagon traders will potentially leave via other exits since they can transit 1-wide paths.  And I've often seen guards escort the wagons to the wide exit and then run and exit out a different way.

[AutomataKittay]

Will a road under a drawbridge get smashed?

So, can I avoid ambushes for the caravans if I dig to the map edge underground and get a depot there, with draw bridges?

Bridge can't be built on paved road.

And yes you can, if you blocks off the two tiles side access you're stuck with aboveground, using drawbridges. Don't use retracting ones, because those don't forms walls.

[NotaPirate]

They usually only spawns where there're depot access. I've had occasional caravan that will only spawn from a specific edge, for some reason. I've never worked that one out, but it's pretty easy to notice and only affects specific civs out of every other for me. It's also pretty rare, which doesn't helps figuring out why it happens.

Diplomats and liasions spawns randomly, which is pretty painful as you've probably found.

My advice would be to mine 4 or 5 tiles wide, instead, so wagon don't gets stuck as easily, and put the depot as close to the edge you're planning to channel. Wall cannot be put up within 5 tiles of the edge, but you can use raised bridge to block access more throughly. I've made closed caravan road in a few fortresses with raised bridge and paved road, it works pretty well

I've had this problem too. Currently the two civs that trade with me only come out from the left side in the game I'm playing on, and the game would just tell me 'the wagons have bypassed your inaccessible site' if I try to force them to from from any other side through depot access. I'm wondering if the river that separates the map into two might have anything to do with it.

[AutomataKittay]

They usually only spawns where there're depot access. I've had occasional caravan that will only spawn from a specific edge, for some reason. I've never worked that one out, but it's pretty easy to notice and only affects specific civs out of every other for me. It's also pretty rare, which doesn't helps figuring out why it happens.

Diplomats and liasions spawns randomly, which is pretty painful as you've probably found.

My advice would be to mine 4 or 5 tiles wide, instead, so wagon don't gets stuck as easily, and put the depot as close to the edge you're planning to channel. Wall cannot be put up within 5 tiles of the edge, but you can use raised bridge to block access more throughly. I've made closed caravan road in a few fortresses with raised bridge and paved road, it works pretty well

I've had this problem too. Currently the two civs that trade with me only come out from the left side in the game I'm playing on, and the game would just tell me 'the wagons have bypassed your inaccessible site' if I try to force them to from from any other side through depot access. I'm wondering if the river that separates the map into two might have anything to do with it.

You know, that river thing might have something to do with it. It could happen with stream embarks too, that's one thing I've not actually checked, to see if it was on the other side.

Yeah, I'm pretty bad at investigating stuffs

[EvilBob22]

Mine a single three-wide tunnel to the closest map edge....

You are not able to mine all the way to the edge, there has to already be an opening there.  You can build walls and a roof over that opening though.

There is a way to get liquids off of a dug out map edge, but not anything solid.  (Dig the tile next to the edge, smooth it, and then carve fortifications; the liquids will get through off the edge.)

[jcochran]

I've recently built a few fortresses and the concept that a caravan only spawns where it has access to the Depot is false. As a result of that issue, I've adopted the following method of channeling my embark perimeter. The result is that my entire edge is accessable to wagons, while only specific locations are accessable to other ground bound humanoids (goblins, elves, humans, etc).


Z
 #v####      # = Unaltered ground
                 V = Ramp down
                  ^ = Ramp up
                 .  = Dug out tile
Z-1
 #^.###

Then at a location of my choosing, I install a goblin grinder to handle humanoids and critters......
The ramp is accessable from the edge of the embark, but the undercut I do next to it renders the ramp useless for ground bound creatures. The caravan wagons however can cross the border without any problems. One caveat however, it's rather easy to miss a spot on the perimeter that will allow access to the interior. I know if I've done the job correctly by looking at the error message prior to covering one of the pits at the end of the goblin grinder. Put the cursor on the edge side of the border and if you see an error message that there's not hatch available to build, then you've done it right.... Otherwise, cancel the placement of the hatch and look around the border carefully to see where you accidentally made a leak. The ramp MUST NOT touch any interior tile in the Z-1 layer either orthogonally or diagonally.

[Sutremaine]

Currently the two civs that trade with me only come out from the left side in the game I'm playing on, and the game would just tell me 'the wagons have bypassed your inaccessible site' if I try to force them to from from any other side through depot access. I'm wondering if the river that separates the map into two might have anything to do with it.

Yes.

Potential depot access is decided upon embark, and never changes. Had the river been frozen, allowing foot passage from your starting wagon to the map edge tiles on the other side of the river, you would have been able to force wagons to arrive from the right even if the river thawed.