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[Dyret]

I bet you are sarcastic, since he meant "be better" largely by economical means. I guess this should indicate a driving force behind the market, in some scenarios the word "greed" could replace "the need to be better, than others". I know a lot of people who are quite content with their humble livelihood.

Mostly sarcastic, but also just saying. People love rubbing perceived superiority in each other faces. At least in the west, this is financial status often enough for some people to be considered wealth-driven robots. "Look at this awesome new boat I bought! I don't ever use it, and I could get five better ones for half the price, but it sure makes the neighbours jealous! Next year I'll probably buy the latest model!" I'm not nearly clever enough to discuss economics with you guys, but I have the distinct impression people's general desperate need to feel superior and one-up each other is a beautiful thing for business. That has probably something to do with capitalist influences though. I can't imagine a communist being all that excited about having eleven more identical state-issued socks than his comrade, which is probably fairly strong evidence dorfs are really filthy capitalists after all.

P.S.: This stuff that not-being a virgin, used as some kind of Internet currency is getting old, srsly Dyret. You won't transform into Superman, also no occult initiation into the secret, upper caste of non-virgins, it's nothing special.

Exactly my feelings. I was being sarcastic.

[towerdude]

In some some sense it's a strange and insane mix of the two. Dwarves share all the stuff they produce, yet eagerly collect stuff if you give them rooms, and chests. (I am still looking forward to have free criminal designation, so I can punish those greedy dwarves that hoard all the artifacts or masterpieces.) They can work endlessly for the greater good, and go on a break in the most crucial situations without any repercussions, drink, eat, sleep, then go on a break again. I don't know if this is a communistic, capitalistic or hedonistic trait. They claim workshops to produce llama intestine cabinets. etc. But can go on a rampage if they are unhappy (which can be caused by seeing that your passing-acquaintance have a better sock).

Pic unrelated:


Did you know that the newspaper Pravda only knew that his name is A. Stakhanov? So they guessed it was Alexey. However his real name was Andrei. After he became famous, he wrote a letter to Stalin about it, Stalin said "The Pravda aren't mistaken!", shortly after this all of his personal papers and IDs, were changed on state order. So he became Alexey officially.

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

Yeah, tell your friend its pretty clear that dwarves have a feudal monarchy, not communism.

Also, those of you who are saying communism is a fine, moral system that was just implemented poorly by power hungry leaders apparently haven't read Marx's Communist Manifesto. In it, Marx explicitly calls for the Proletariat to rise up and murder the Bourgeois and steal their things. Not exact a moral way to start a system of government. For an example, see China's so-called "Cultural Revolution."

[Dyret]

I think the problem with debating dorfs and ideology is A, they're really stupid, B, they're apolitical, and C, this far, you'll always be a frontier settlement, even after reaching the population cap and attracting the monarch. I mean, initially you're seven guys stuck in the wilderness, quite possibly surrounded by undead elk and zombifying rain. The pick is communal property because it's the future of everyone, as is the plump helmet spawn. If whoever brought the pick die, someone else will have to pick it up, because it's the difference between survival and being eaten by elk, and there's nothing in place to move society beyond that as it gets more advanced.

Secondly dwarves have absolutely no motivation whatsoever. They sleep when they're tired, they eat when they're hungry, but that's it. Yeah, they love gem encrusted statues in their bedroom and love admiring fine doors (even more so when it's "their" door,) and get pissed off when someone have something nicer than them, but they will never try to change any of that. They're not going to put in extra work or petition the local government to improve their quality of life. They simply exist in the present. From what I've heard about future updates (political stuff and personality rewrites mainly, but I suppose the whole caravan/tavern thing comes into it) they'll definitely on the capitalistic side of things in the future, which is okay. Dwarves have always seemed more like industrialist than artisans. Right now however, there's no such thing as Dwarf ideology. If you tried to discuss it with one he would just give you a blank stare before canceling the conversation to get a drink. I sort of understand where your friend is coming from, even if he's overreacting a bit, but dwarven society as is seems more like a really weird apathetic anarchistic mob-rule than communism. I mean, right now the entire dwarven government consist of the three guys going "make me golden statues for my bedroom or I'll have the hammerer beat you to death."

Did you know that the newspaper Pravda only knew that his name is A. Stakhanov? So they guessed it was Alexey. However his real name was Andrei. After he became famous, he wrote a letter to Stalin about it, Stalin said "The Pravda aren't mistaken!", shortly after this all of his personal papers and IDs, were changed on state order. So he became Alexey officially.

Hehe, that's actually quite dorfy. "but... but... my name is really Obok," "Well, you're named after my brother Steve now, deal with it."

[Kerbalrocketry]

Dwarfs are basically just cute little balls of hair who just want everyone to stop argueing and break out the booze. 

(though dwarfs do seem to have a hybrid Feudal-communist system where the state is run by monarchy but at peasant level they don't trade and instead use common storage)

So who is right? Is there (or should be there) a reasonable limit for one's desires? Can someone strive to infinitely better her/himself? What's the point of having 100 vacation houses, countless cars, yahts and planes (or drinking gems dissolved in vinegar: Caligula)?

Maybe a bit off-topic, but could be relevant regarding all the talk about capitalism.

Myself, I associates anarcho-captialism with Glided Era of USA ( and probably Europe, though I'm not familiar with their industrial age conditions ) and their monopolies.

Anarcho-Capitalists believe that there should be no government what so ever, with no laws and no rights. For very good reasons i avoid associating it with civilisation because it's defining feature is the lack there of.

[Loud Whispers]

Anarcho-Capitalists believe that there should be no government what so ever, with no laws and no rights. For very good reasons i avoid associating it with civilisation because it's defining feature is the lack there of.

No, Anarcho-capitalists believe there should be no government whatsoever and that laws would be built around privately run courts and legal principles. Distinctions are important.

[towerdude]

Yeah, tell your friend its pretty clear that dwarves have a feudal monarchy, not communism.

Also, those of you who are saying communism is a fine, moral system that was just implemented poorly by power hungry leaders apparently haven't read Marx's Communist Manifesto. In it, Marx explicitly calls for the Proletariat to rise up and murder the Bourgeois and steal their things. Not exact a moral way to start a system of government. For an example, see China's so-called "Cultural Revolution."

Yup, few people read the actual manifesto.

Carl Marx: The classes and the races, too weak to master the new conditions of life, must give way.  “Forced Emigration,” New York Daily Tribune, 22 March 1853

The Highland Gaels and the Welsh [said Engels in the journal The Commonwealth in 1866] are undoubtedly of different nationalities to what the English are, although nobody will give to these remnants of peoples long gone by the title of nations, any more than to the Celtic inhabitants of Brittany in France....[9]

And in the article 'Germany and Panslavism' (1855) he says of the Austrian Slavs:

We can distinguish two groups of Austrian Slavs. One group consists of remnants of nationalities, whose own history belongs to the past and whose present historical development is tied up with that of nations of different race and speech.... Consequently, these nationalities, although living exclusively on Austrian soil, are in no way constituted as different nations.[10]

In another place Engels says:

Neither Bohemia nor Croatia possessed the power to exist as nations by themselves. Their nationalities, gradually undermined by historical  factors which cause their absorption by more vigorous races, can expect to win back some sort of independence only if they link themselves with other Slavic nations' (Engels refers here to Russia).[11]

-----

However some communists argue that we have to read these in a certain historical context. Or that even if Marx or Engels was mildly racist, this doesn't mean that the core idea of communism is bad. You decide.

[coldmonkey]

Can't you keep this dumbass discussion where it belongs, like RevLeft, Reddit, /pol/, or wherever it is you usually have it?

[Loud Whispers]

Can't you keep this dumbass discussion where it belongs, like RevLeft, Reddit, /pol/, or wherever it is you usually have it?

To be fair, neither 3 would be capable of having this discussion in a civil or polite manner. Nonetheless, it does belong in the lower boards.

[towerdude]

I can't help it if people somewhat deviate from the original topic, but I reply to those comments never the less.

-----

By the way I also wanted to ask, since this topic is about morality.

Have any of you ever grasped the implications of your actions in DF? I mean have you ever felt really sorry for what you have done in DF? Some cruel contraptions or disgraceful actions in adventure mode? Have you ever thought that maybe these actions reflect your personality in some way? Or it just a game?

(in some ways DF could be a good personality analizator tool)

[CaptainLambcake]

well the dwarves will kill "130million" goblins?

[Morrigi]

well the dwarves will kill "130million" goblins?

Only if they attack us.

...That said, we're getting a system for armies eventually. BOATMURDERED SHALL RISE AGAIN!

[PatriotSaint]

well the dwarves will kill "130million" goblins?

You must mean Cheesemakers.

[Enemy post]

I think this is relevant. Dwarf morality:
   [ETHIC:KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER:PUNISH_CAPITAL]
   [ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:ONLY_IF_SANCTIONED]
   [ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:ACCEPTABLE]
   [ETHIC:KILL_ANIMAL:ACCEPTABLE]
   [ETHIC:KILL_PLANT:ACCEPTABLE]
   [ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_FUN:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:TORTURE_ANIMALS:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:TREASON:PUNISH_CAPITAL]
   [ETHIC:OATH_BREAKING:PUNISH_CAPITAL]
   [ETHIC:LYING:PERSONAL_MATTER]
   [ETHIC:VANDALISM:PUNISH_SERIOUS]
   [ETHIC:TRESPASSING:PUNISH_SERIOUS]
   [ETHIC:THEFT:PUNISH_SERIOUS]
   [ETHIC:ASSAULT:PUNISH_SERIOUS]
   [ETHIC:SLAVERY:PUNISH_CAPITAL]
   [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_OTHER:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAME_RACE:APPALLING]
   [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAPIENT:SHUN]
   [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_ANIMAL:ACCEPTABLE]

[towerdude]

I think this is relevant. Dwarf morality:
   [ETHIC:KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER:PUNISH_CAPITAL]
   [ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:ONLY_IF_SANCTIONED]
   [ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:ACCEPTABLE]
   [ETHIC:KILL_ANIMAL:ACCEPTABLE]
   [ETHIC:KILL_PLANT:ACCEPTABLE]
   [ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_FUN:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:TORTURE_ANIMALS:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:TREASON:PUNISH_CAPITAL]
   [ETHIC:OATH_BREAKING:PUNISH_CAPITAL]
   [ETHIC:LYING:PERSONAL_MATTER]
   [ETHIC:VANDALISM:PUNISH_SERIOUS]
   [ETHIC:TRESPASSING:PUNISH_SERIOUS]
   [ETHIC:THEFT:PUNISH_SERIOUS]
   [ETHIC:ASSAULT:PUNISH_SERIOUS]
   [ETHIC:SLAVERY:PUNISH_CAPITAL]
   [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_OTHER:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAME_RACE:APPALLING]
   [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAPIENT:SHUN]
   [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_ANIMAL:ACCEPTABLE]

I have always found the dwarven justice of punishing oath breakers with death, a bit strange. I am also against capital punishment generally.

-----

Anyway I intended the title to be about OUR morality concerning dwarffortress, how you guys feel. Are your actions in DF affect your own personal morality in real life, etc.