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Author Topic: Morality?  (Read 7893 times)

towerdude

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Morality?
« on: August 05, 2013, 01:22:00 pm »

Okay, so I guess this is the right place to post this. I had a few friends whom I tried to introduce to DF, but they simply rejected it on the grounds that it is to complex for them, they just don't have the patience, or like shallow games (Modern Warfare). Not really a problem, though even I thought at first, that I will never master it (same with HoI3), yet I managed.

Howevere today, after showing the game to my friend, and how dwarven economy worked at start, he said that he "Will not play the game because it promotes communism as a functional system, when in reality it isn't. And by the way communism killed 130 million people. So playing this game would be immoral." I thought arguments can't get stupider than this (really hope he trolled me though).

Even if dwarves essentially live in a commune what that has to do with Stalin and his cronyes? This is just a game, not politics.

-----

By the way I just made this thread to ask you guys, have you ever encountered similar nonsense regarding DF (not neccesarily involving politics and morality)?
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AutomataKittay

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Re: Morality?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 01:34:23 pm »

Well, that red-fearing friend of your seem to have difficulity getting entertainment :D

I've pretty much only had complaint of default graphics being difficult to read, personally, and I suggested some tilesets which worked out in end. I don't know many people that likes stimulation, adventuring or building games so I don't really promote DF.

I don't really see it as shallow vs deep game, different folks likes different gamin'.
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towerdude

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Re: Morality?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 02:07:27 pm »

Dunno probably a case of "slippery slope" argument.

----

Yeah I had people just look at the game and say "WTF is this?", you have to investigate to find the inner beauty.

P.S. When I said shallow I meant games that have few content, repetitive and involve such skills that either require 24/7 gameplay or aimbot, etc.
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Szuvas Fogbank the Skinny Innocent Inn-Dinner of Spinning

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The lower body flies off in an arc!

A new crazy succession game! Are you up to the challange? http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=114041.0

Tevish Szat

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Re: Morality?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2013, 02:23:32 pm »

The only reason communism exists in DF is that the economy is mechanically busted and couldn't be sanely implemented at the present: it's almost assuredly coming back.  So, the communal state of a Fortress is more fort mode being perpetually stuck in a frontier/homesteader/survivalist mode than any political statement.
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Yerv

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Re: Morality?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 02:32:09 pm »

Wow, um... I can't even, really? How does the actions of 50 or so little drunken bearded buggers relate to Communism? Your friend is obviously inept at politics. Dwarven society isn't classless, only moneyless.
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AutomataKittay

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Re: Morality?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 02:41:35 pm »

The only reason communism exists in DF is that the economy is mechanically busted and couldn't be sanely implemented at the present: it's almost assuredly coming back.  So, the communal state of a Fortress is more fort mode being perpetually stuck in a frontier/homesteader/survivalist mode than any political statement.

Yeah, I can at least verify that last version with economy, back at 40d, was pretty easy to break. Just train every haulers to legendary pump operator ( legendaries don't pays for anything ) and have public beds for anyone that's broke or kids. Modelling communalism or command economy are pretty easy, I've not seen many good economic modelling that'd mimic even basic demand and supply in games in general.

Wow, um... I can't even, really? How does the actions of 50 or so little drunken bearded buggers relate to Communism? Your friend is obviously inept at politics. Dwarven society isn't classless, only moneyless.

Dorfbux, friend, it buys elves' woods out and dwarven anvil from mountainhome!

I'd argue it's pretty primitive feudalism or even imperialism, after all, corvee system's pretty well in place and the norm. You get put to work for fortress' owner/ruler. At least overseers usually give enough ale rations. Usually  :o
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cephalo

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Re: Morality?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 02:54:32 pm »

Anytime you have a small community living in isolation you almost always have a great deal of communal sharing. It's not in anyone's interest to have the only doctor starve because there haven't been any injuries this season. Historically, for small groups of people, communism is the rule rather than the exception. Trying to apply that to a large country is where it gets problematic. Labor has to be valuable for it to work, otherwise the extra workers just become freeloaders.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Morality?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 03:57:27 pm »


Howevere today, after showing the game to my friend, and how dwarven economy worked at start, he said that he "Will not play the game because it promotes communism as a functional system, when in reality it isn't. And by the way communism killed 130 million people. So playing this game would be immoral." I thought arguments can't get stupider than this (really hope he trolled me though).

Even if dwarves essentially live in a commune what that has to do with Stalin and his cronyes? This is just a game, not politics.

-----

By the way I just made this thread to ask you guys, have you ever encountered similar nonsense regarding DF (not neccesarily involving politics and morality)?

The Blue (because red is scary) part is a nice non sequitur. While the many proponents of "Communism" faciliated murders on such a scale its not the fault of the Communistic idea.

But given the "bodycount" as metric for "Moral" i like to state that any other political or economical system from Democracy to Fascism has similar histories (Slaves in the US, Wars for resources, The clash of Communism and Kapitalism etc.) but often continue this tradition to the very day. A such any system would be amoral.

Also by your friends logic playing "Train" would promote Nationalistic fasicm and thus is damn worthy. The idea behind the game is thought on the opposite side, warning against Dangers of such a system. (Amd since i am German i get the Godwin)

That being said i perceived DF often more Socialistic or rather a form of Social(istic) Democracy with a slight modern European Streak or depending on your nobles and decisions a Socialistic Feudalism. ( edit: Even "Jesus" and the "Bible" support socialism in some way if you Seek for a religious version of Morals)

For small groups it makes total practical sense since the loss of a small number of your group weakens the entire group as whole. The most extreme example would be loosing a farmer or Miner early on. Even later at 30 or 40 dorfs its a hard loss to say get 3 or 4 dwarves killed which quickly impairs your economy or defences. The even distribution of Food, lodging etc. maintains the overall health of your Population reducing the risk of catastrophic losses from internal causes say rampaging dorfs. 

Only if you reach bigger numbers and people get expendable exchangeable Capitalism gets more viable (often for a selected few). Any loss in manpower gets marginal since if Urist MC-Jobber dies by the lack of Healthcare you can replace him by one of his peers.



For the question if i got crap about DF? Sure mostly for the Graphics and the interface, a few select times for not being "Story driven" and goalless.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 04:04:24 pm by Heph »
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towerdude

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Re: Morality?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 04:59:51 pm »

Anytime you have a small community living in isolation you almost always have a great deal of communal sharing. It's not in anyone's interest to have the only doctor starve because there haven't been any injuries this season. Historically, for small groups of people, communism is the rule rather than the exception. Trying to apply that to a large country is where it gets problematic. Labor has to be valuable for it to work, otherwise the extra workers just become freeloaders.

I just found an interesting story concerning Kibbutz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz, how they raised children, how they rotated work (everyone worked for 1 week at a pecific field), no private property, avoid sexism. And how the second generation of children returned to traditional roles on their own, and how the founders' utopian ideas proved to be false in the face of human nature.


Howevere today, after showing the game to my friend, and how dwarven economy worked at start, he said that he "Will not play the game because it promotes communism as a functional system, when in reality it isn't. And by the way communism killed 130 million people. So playing this game would be immoral." I thought arguments can't get stupider than this (really hope he trolled me though).

Even if dwarves essentially live in a commune what that has to do with Stalin and his cronyes? This is just a game, not politics.

-----

By the way I just made this thread to ask you guys, have you ever encountered similar nonsense regarding DF (not neccesarily involving politics and morality)?

The Blue (because red is scary) part is a nice non sequitur. While the many proponents of "Communism" faciliated murders on such a scale its not the fault of the Communistic idea.

But given the "bodycount" as metric for "Moral" i like to state that any other political or economical system from Democracy to Fascism has similar histories (Slaves in the US, Wars for resources, The clash of Communism and Kapitalism etc.) but often continue this tradition to the very day. A such any system would be amoral.

Also by your friends logic playing "Train" would promote Nationalistic fasicm and thus is damn worthy. The idea behind the game is thought on the opposite side, warning against Dangers of such a system. (Amd since i am German i get the Godwin)

That being said i perceived DF often more Socialistic or rather a form of Social(istic) Democracy with a slight modern European Streak or depending on your nobles and decisions a Socialistic Feudalism. ( edit: Even "Jesus" and the "Bible" support socialism in some way if you Seek for a religious version of Morals)

For small groups it makes total practical sense since the loss of a small number of your group weakens the entire group as whole. The most extreme example would be loosing a farmer or Miner early on. Even later at 30 or 40 dorfs its a hard loss to say get 3 or 4 dwarves killed which quickly impairs your economy or defences. The even distribution of Food, lodging etc. maintains the overall health of your Population reducing the risk of catastrophic losses from internal causes say rampaging dorfs. 

Only if you reach bigger numbers and people get expendable exchangeable Capitalism gets more viable (often for a selected few). Any loss in manpower gets marginal since if Urist MC-Jobber dies by the lack of Healthcare you can replace him by one of his peers.



For the question if i got crap about DF? Sure mostly for the Graphics and the interface, a few select times for not being "Story driven" and goalless.

Thanks for the insight an the link, probably I have never found that board game on my own, but the article pretty much spoiled it for me. I think I will buy one to make a "psychological expereiment" on my friends, just to see their reactions.
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Szuvas Fogbank the Skinny Innocent Inn-Dinner of Spinning

The spinning ☼dwarf leather earring☼ strikes the Spirit of Fire in the lower body!
The lower body flies off in an arc!

A new crazy succession game! Are you up to the challange? http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=114041.0

itisnotlogical

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Re: Morality?
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2013, 05:06:36 pm »

Your friend must be one of those people who would have a problem with The Land Before Time because dinosaurs can't actually talk.
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Blastbeard

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Re: Morality?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 06:42:18 pm »

Funny how this guy decided to focus on communism, of all things, instead of the baby immolation, mermaid farming, and eugenics.
Or did he just not get that far?

Also, communism didn't kill 130 million people, the people who took advantage of it to sieze power did.

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ORCACommander

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Re: Morality?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2013, 08:29:18 pm »

if you want to offend his sense of morality look up the evil deed type threads and read off the horrors within
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weenog

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Re: Morality?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2013, 10:04:34 am »

Maybe the simple friend would like it more if he saw a fortress with a giant US flag paved into the entrance courtyard in stone and metal blocks of appropriate colors, overlooked by dozens of proud eagles perched atop gold pillars.

Need to be working on some kind of amazing megaproject, of course.

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towerdude

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Re: Morality?
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2013, 12:30:43 pm »

Maybe the simple friend would like it more if he saw a fortress with a giant US flag paved into the entrance courtyard in stone and metal blocks of appropriate colors, overlooked by dozens of proud eagles perched atop gold pillars.

Need to be working on some kind of amazing megaproject, of course.



Nah, we are not Americans, in fact here we pretty much dislike it that 90% of TV shows
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
, films
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
, news
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
  and political opinions
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
  are either American or influenced by the US. You know it's kind of like the feeling when you eat your favourite food every day, you begin to hate it (if you cannot eat anything else).

So he doesn't like the USA either.

Funny how this guy decided to focus on communism, of all things, instead of the baby immolation, mermaid farming, and eugenics.
Or did he just not get that far?

Also, communism didn't kill 130 million people, the people who took advantage of it to sieze power did.

For Mother Mountainhome, comrades!

He didn't got that deep in the rabbit's hole.

By the way the strong anti-communist sentiment we have here is due to the fact that they militarily conquered us, and you had to endure some serious stuff.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But that's the past, it never was communism. They may called it that way, but real communism never really existed, in political structure it was more like a sort of semi-aristocratic state. 60 years ago our communist leaders didn't want communism, because in communism you don't have leaders. And especially don't have ultra rich leaders.

But some people, like my friend don't realize this, they just see the label and not the content. Anyway if my enemy has a good idea, which is useable, should I discard it, because he has a different ideology?

In that way, the system Dwarf Fortress has, was always more likeable to me, though there are always some free-loaders
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
, but public opinion
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
can regulate this. I mean a social system like this teaches us to respect others better, because we rely on them, and they rely on us. Large scale implementation is another story.
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Szuvas Fogbank the Skinny Innocent Inn-Dinner of Spinning

The spinning ☼dwarf leather earring☼ strikes the Spirit of Fire in the lower body!
The lower body flies off in an arc!

A new crazy succession game! Are you up to the challange? http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=114041.0

weenog

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Re: Morality?
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2013, 01:40:14 pm »

Well, use your own nation's flag and symbols, or whatever your simple friend holds up as anti-communist ideals.  I was just using the US because it's been such a bitter enemy of communism in the past.  The point is, it sounds like your friend is more of a knee-jerk reactor than someone who thinks things through, so you can probably make him do a 180 if you hit him with some powerful surface symbolism.
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Listen up: making a thing a ‼thing‼ doesn't make it more awesome or extreme.  It simply indicates the thing is on fire.  Get it right or look like a silly poser.

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