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Author Topic: Modern Social Skills Questions  (Read 3254 times)

Darkmere

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2013, 11:02:01 pm »

Honestly, part of the reason I quit using FB is all the random junk I got from everyone, in a constant torrent. People I had never spoken to IRL were asking me to their parties, which were also attended entirely by people I had never met. Look at my virtual parsnips. Join my guildmafiagangfarmsquad. This is not useful data.

+1 to "if you're unsure of a dress code, ask". The worst that can happen is you feel a little silly for a minute or two.

The FB message you typed is pretty similar to what I did when I quit using it altogether. I'd bet you'll find out pretty quickly who's actually your friend (who will try to keep up with you IRL) and who isn't. It doesn't really sounds snobbish to me, just blunt in a good way. I also hate social media, so I may not be the best judge...
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

Sappho

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2013, 12:37:50 am »

Completely missed that this is supposed to be something that you're posting on Facebook!

Yeah, it's not that facebook is inherently evil - it's just that you prefer most of your social interactions NOT to happen over facebook. It's just not the same for you. It doesn't mean the other way of doing it is wrong. I guess that needs to be a little more prevalent throughout the text, but other than that I don't think.

Also, "make an announcement" makes you sound a little high and mighty. Perhaps something more personal, like, "I feel I should explain something", which is more what you'd hear between friends :)

Actually I do think that Facebook is inherently bad, at least in the way people use it. The way I use it, it's a tool. I can share photos and send messages, and if someone disagrees with something I say on there, it doesn't mean we're not friends anymore. But I keep seeing people disappear into sites like Facebook. My mother and sister back in America will send each other a Facebook message instead of walking into the next room to speak. One of my sisters spends her entire day on Facebook updating the world about the laundry she's doing and the severity of her period, and neglects taking her children outside so she can keep updated with all her online friends, most of whom she has never met in real life. I have been chastised for failing to click "like" on a friend's hundredth picture of their nephew who is learning to speak. I have unfriended countless people who I don't even want to speak to, because all they did was post religious and political propaganda that makes no difference to the world other than to make them feel justified in their stupid opinions. People have stopped trying to actually make a difference in the world, because when there's a disaster or a political situation that needs to be addressed, someone starts a Facebook petition, they click "like," and they consider their job to be done. People are losing social skills and Facebook is completely changing the way people communicate with each other. It has gotten to the point where if you fail to actively engage with people on this meaningless imaginary virtual space, you are somehow a jerk in real life. If you don't say you'll attend someone's party, you're rude. If you don't add your old boss as a friend, you're arrogant. If you get ten invitations to parties a week because people send out party invitations like fucking spam, you're a snob. This is bullshit and I'm completely sick of it.

I want to quit Facebook entirely and tell everyone that if they want to keep in touch, they have to use email. But if I do that, there are a lot of people that I genuinely want to keep in touch with, who I will lose touch with. Not because they're not real friends, but because they're so conditioned to using Facebook for everything that half of them almost never even check their emails and would never think to write an email to someone anymore. Forget snail mail - even email is going out of fashion now.

So yeah, I don't want to write a "so sorry to all of you for the misunderstanding" kind of post. I want to write a "Facebook is horrible and I can't believe I even need to ANNOUNCE to the world that I don't spend my whole life obsessing over it" kind of post, but make it inoffensive enough that I don't have to deal with hate mail. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone since I rant about it all the time. And if they're really so far gone into Facebook that they transfer their dislike of my post into a dislike of me as a person, then perhaps it's time to move on with my life and spend more time keeping in touch with people who still have the social ability to interact with other humans outside of facebook.

Fuck, I'm late for work from writing that... But I needed to say it. I'll make my little facebook announcement soon, will probably change it a bit more. Thanks again for the feedback.

Anvilfolk

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2013, 10:03:31 am »

Heheheh, well, I still think that there is a difference in a tool itself being available, and the way the general population uses it. If everybody used hammers to knock each other on the head, does that mean the solution is for hammers not to exist? They can still be used to drive in nails and build houses, so perhaps we should work on having people building more houses and less on knocking each other on the head.

I still think you can be more innocuous in your way of saying things :)

Sappho

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2013, 12:08:36 pm »

I'm not saying Facebook shouldn't exist (although I think the world would be improved if it didn't). I'm saying that the way it is, the way it works, and the way human nature has evolved to be, it's causing horrible damage to society and human relationships (and ability to interact). I'm well aware that Facebook is not going to change, and people are not going to stop using it. But I am most certainly not going to be one of them, I'm not going to get sucked into this pit of social decay, and I don't see why it should be expected of me that I will.

People are fucking stupid and I've spent my entire life accommodating their stupidity and apologizing for my social differences, but I will not apologize for this one. Every scientific study being conducted on the subject these days is showing again and again that these social networks and the way people use them are damaging relationships, social skills, political movements, and countless other important parts of the modern world. I will not participate in this decline, and I will not apologize for pointing it out.

The more I think about it, the more I would like to simply stop using Facebook. However, as I said before, I don't want to lose touch with certain people. But the people I want to keep in touch with this way have the same attitude towards Facebook as I do, and the ones I can keep in touch with easily via other methods are the ones obsessing over their digital FB lives. So I have a new idea. I will divide my Facebook "friends" into 3 groups:
1. People I'm not likely to talk to again or have no interest in keeping in touch with.
2. People I can keep in touch with outside of Facebook.
3. People who I want to keep in touch with but am likely to lose if I don't use Facebook to communicate with them.

Group 1 will simply be unfriended. It's a big group. I'm tired of being guilt-tripped into adding people as "friends" that I have no interest in keeping in touch with. If it makes me rude, then so be it. I doubt they'll even notice they've been unfriended.

Groups 2 and 3 will be divided into separate "friend" groups on Facebook. I'm pretty sure this is doable - each group getting different messages and seeing different posts depending on the privacy flag I use.

Group 2 will see a message saying I'm no longer using Facebook. If they want to keep in touch with me, they can use my email or contact me by phone. Future Facebook posts will be mostly hidden from this group.

Group 3 will see a message saying I'm cutting down on my Facebook use. It will make it clear that I'm not interested in playing games, liking pages, or following events based in Facebook. Any important correspondence must be made another way, because I won't check it often.

I will then finish cleaning out my Facebook history. This is something I've been at for MONTHS. Facebook, as it turns out, makes it EXTREMELY difficult to delete your old posts. It hides most of them each time you visit the page, so you have to go through everything again and again and again. I'm up to mid-2012 at last, deleting almost everything. Leaving only a few really clever posts and links that are still interesting and relevant. Hiding many of my photos. Once I finish this cleaning-out process, I will pretty much stop posting in Facebook unless it's something really important. I'll still share photos with the people who are involved in the photos (like my Taiji group training photos), but I rarely do that anyway. Links I want to share from now on will go only on my tumblr. I'll move most private message conversations to email, and make it clear to each individual that I'm doing so.

How does all that sound? Any holes in my plan that I might have missed?

Anvilfolk

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2013, 12:38:09 pm »

If not Facebook, something else will crop up that people will use. Like another social network... or smartphones. I can't sit down for lunch/dinner with my younger cousins anymore, because they are always on the freaking phone. You can't have a conversation.

I do believe that human nature in general does not change. What we consider to be vacuous behaviour, as we interpret it by participating in social networks in the way you describe, has always existed. Heck, if you read Jane Austen, you find exactly the same type of people. Except instead of being on Facebook all the time, they spent their time admiring soldiers, sailors and attending balls, and had no other, perhaps more lofty pursuits. It's probably a feature of the human race, and gets repeated over the centuries, even millennia.

The thing is - I totally agree with you, but your Facebook is also a pretty decent image of your group of friends. My Facebook, for instance, has a couple of isolated people like that, but mostly... not. I tend to add and prune my friends in a way that I (mostly) don't get idiot stuff on there.

I think I'd be more inclined to ask the question about what we can do, and more specifically, what I personally can do to help change society for the better... to try to guide people towards less herpderp activities. Being part of associations, activities, and overall meaningful actions is one way. As is advertising those on Facebook - so other people see they don't need to be discussion periods all the time. Or nails. What is up with those horrendous long squarish plastic nails people use these days? I would use that as the stereotypical example of the most unaesthetical of human inventions (except perhaps for the Grumman F2F).

But anyway!

I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion :)

Regarding the plan - it's a way to get to the ends that you specified, though I'm pretty sure the two groups of friends probably intersect and people will eventually realise you've classified them differently than X or Y and might get upset.

Darkmere

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2013, 02:06:24 pm »

... So what if people get upset? There's more to life than making sure every tender, sensitive soul in the world never gets bruised. The important people in (anyone's) life will understand and accept you. The rest usually aren't worth bothering about. I'm not usually one for quotes but this is well put and supports my argument:

Spoiler: Pithy Quote Ahoy! (click to show/hide)

In short, do what you have to to make your life easier and tolerable. If people can't handle real interaction that isn't framed nicely in a box (on facebook or a text or a twit or whatever) that's their failing.

Granted, your contacts may or may not be job-related, so that's a consideration. Just my $0.02.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

penguinofhonor

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2013, 01:45:56 am »

I don't think that Stephen Fry quote is meant to apply to things like friends whose feelings you actually care about.
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Grakelin

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2013, 06:22:07 am »

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate on this Facebook thing. If you have Facebook, you probably should make sure you check your notifications. You don't have to obssess over the website to be aware of things that are directed at you. Think of it like an e-mail inbox where invitations to parties show up. It makes the whole process of inviting people to events a whole lot easier for everybody involved.

On the other hand, your friends didn't seem to notice that you hadn't clicked "Yes" or "Maybe" by the time the event started, so it's really on them if they wanted you there that badly.
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Sappho

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2013, 10:59:47 am »

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate on this Facebook thing. If you have Facebook, you probably should make sure you check your notifications. You don't have to obssess over the website to be aware of things that are directed at you. Think of it like an e-mail inbox where invitations to parties show up. It makes the whole process of inviting people to events a whole lot easier for everybody involved.

On the other hand, your friends didn't seem to notice that you hadn't clicked "Yes" or "Maybe" by the time the event started, so it's really on them if they wanted you there that badly.

When I signed up for Facebook, it was for university students only. You had to confirm your official uni email address to get on. You could write a short note about what you were doing (twitter-style), or you could write longer "notes" or even share a few pictures. There were the basics of a profile structure, but no "likes" or anything like that.

They keep adding features to Facebook. They sure as hell don't check with the users to see if we want them first, because they don't care. Most people will just do whatever they're told by the Facebook machine, even if they take a few minutes to complain about it when it first happens. Nowadays you have to manage your privacy settings on many levels. You have to continually check to make sure you're not being tagged in photos your grandparents might see. You have to manage a flood of unwanted game spam and anyone, at any time, can invite you to their "event." I have NO INTEREST in any of this garbage. So you're telling me that it's not acceptable to simply keep using the features you want and ignore the ones you never asked for and vocally dislike. You either use ALL of it, ALL the time, or you quit Facebook altogether?

Well, I have decided to quit. This is insanity. I've written up a whole essay about why, and I'm going to post it on my tumblr. Then I'm going to post an announcement on Facebook informing my friends and family that I'm quitting and providing a list of alternative ways to keep in touch with me. I'll post them here first and if anyone has any last comments, suggestions, ideas, etc., feel free to post them here.

Spoiler: Announcement (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Essay on why I quit (click to show/hide)

Lectorog

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2013, 11:13:23 am »

Makes you sound like you're "too good for" Facebook, and that you yearn for "the good old days", from the perspective of someone who likes Facebook. Don't expect your friends to all receive it well, but it sounds like you're pretty tired of friends who won't take anything without a sugar coating anyway.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2013, 11:26:05 am »

As someone who grew up without cell phones and internet too I sympathize a lot with that essay. I have thought about getting a facebook account to passively keep in touch with people I can't keep much contact with otherwise, but it seems too much of a hassle. The people I really want to keep contact with are reachable in other ways, so that has worked fine for me so far. I used to have accounts on older social networks, but that turned out to pretty useless after a while, and certainly not a great way to stay in touch.
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Sappho

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2013, 12:00:42 pm »

Makes you sound like you're "too good for" Facebook, and that you yearn for "the good old days", from the perspective of someone who likes Facebook. Don't expect your friends to all receive it well, but it sounds like you're pretty tired of friends who won't take anything without a sugar coating anyway.

It's not that I think I'm too good for Facebook. I think everyone is too good for Facebook (and yes, I do yearn for the days before it existed, and I don't think that's a bad thing). Unfortunately they're all deciding to live their lives and engage in all their social interactions this way. So yes, you're right - I'm tired of "friends" who expect me to engage in this system and criticize me for not doing it well enough. There are enough people in my social circles who don't use Facebook that I know I won't be left out just because I don't want to use it anymore.

I just finished going through my account and deleting most of my old posts. I think it's noteworthy that most of my recent posts (within the last 6 months or so) were links to articles explaining scientifically why Facebook and other systems like it are objectively, measurably damaging people. Everyone who knows me on Facebook ought to already be well aware of my opinion on things. If not, well, they'll either get over it, or we'll lose touch. I sure as hell don't feel the need to have 276 "friends." Holy hell, is it really that many? I blame old co-workers and friends from early school days who I never would have thought of again if they hadn't "add"ed me on Facebook, and social pressure dictated that I must accept their invitation or else be branded a jerk.

The other thing I noticed when deleting the old posts was how mundane most of them were. At what point in my life did the change happen... When was the first time I had a thought like "This weather is INSANE" and immediately think "I must share this on Facebook"? No one ever needs to read these things. And yet I get "like"s on these things, because people will click "like" on anything just as an acknowledgement that they read it and don't actively despise me for having posted it. This is just wrong... From now on, energy I used to spend considering which things to share on Facebook can be spent on things like writing my books, expanding my game, completing my paintings, and otherwise producing things to share with the world. Really, the only reason to share these things on a social network is because you want as many people as possible to see them and give you attention in return. There are better ways to get attention. Keeping in touch is easily enough accomplished via email.

I've made some small revisions to my little essay, maybe cut some of the harsher edges off.

Spoiler: Why I Quit Facebook (click to show/hide)

Darkmere

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2013, 05:50:25 pm »

I thought the first one sounded fine. Second one also seems good. You know what will happen already, so it seems like you have a pretty good handle on the situation.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

Blargityblarg

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2013, 06:13:28 pm »

I think the issue here is that you're doing Facebook wrong. #1-#3 are all things that you either ignore, blocking or unfriending the worst offenders. I've got 224 friends, and I get very little spam, because I keep my friends list to people with whom I interact It's not a jerky thing to unfriend someone on facebook. Most likely, they won't even notice, particularly if they're using it so obliviously as to warrant an unfriending. If you're really worried, you can just block their posts; nothing they do will appear on your feed.

#4 is an issue, but my stance is that unless you're specifically providing sensitive information, there's nothing particularly dangerous going out there. If you're worried about people knowing who your immediate family is based on a system with an incredibly low signal-to-noise ratio (I'm listed as at least two people's ancestors on Facebook, despite being 19 and their being older than me), given that things like the Department of Births, Deaths and Marriages, (or US/Croatian equivalent) exist, then, well, good luck to you.

Finally, I don't think #5 necessarily had anything to do with Facebook. If someone's blocked and deleted you, cut off all contact because of a singular post, those signs are pointing more towards that person being a bellend than Facebook having magically coerced them to never speak to you again.

My final point isn't a specific response to one of your numbered ones, but rather a challenge to your idea that Facebook interaction is inherently worse than face-to-face. I don't think this is necessarily true; the exchange of ideas is the exchange of ideas. If we're talking about the richness of communication, speaking via the Internet, whilst shutting down the possibility for tone of voice and body language, provides easy access to further content (links, pictures) to explain one's points. Indeed, if richness of communication is the issue, then this very forum is pretty much exactly on a par with Facebook.

To summarise, I think you have less of a problem with Facebook and more of a problem with people who don't know how to use Facebook.

(If I come across as confrontational, sorry)
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Vector

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Re: Modern Social Skills Questions
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2013, 06:45:38 pm »

Yeah... I was going to add that I have 138 Facebook friends, almost all of whom are either actual pals or contacts I want to keep on my broadcast list.  If someone posts too prolifically or about things that are too trivial but I do want to keep contact, they get removed from my feed immediately; if they piss me off too much, they're unfriended.  All games are blocked.  I also employ an adblocker (this all took literally five minutes to set up).  I mostly get interesting articles, big announcements, or success stories and I actually click through to about 20% of the information on there and learn a lot from it (it would be a higher percentage but I don't like watching videos, so that cuts down on a lot of stuff).  I don't keep any personal data on there like gender, religious affiliation, relationship status, etc.  I don't even put up personal photos outside of art.  Mostly I post music, ballet, math humor, especially interesting articles that otherwise I'd be hocking to all of my friends individually.

As for what I get out of it: lots of interesting information about current events, updates on my friends and what they've been up to, an easy connection with people who often have unstable contact information, a platform to easily ask about book recommendations or housing or jobs or that one little piece of data I forgot about... I dunno, I get a lot of mileage and just about zero annoyance.
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