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[TolyK]

Thoughts right before posting: Sheesh. I'm short of time, and they just keep adding more and more.

TolyK:

TolyK:

TolyK— you've played a lot of role heavy games right? Are there any really common things we should be looking out for?

Well, considering it's a WUBA game, there's likely "another" SK, since he modkilled one instantly, or a cult.
Common things? Don't say everything you know instantly, and always always always check facts with your facts.
And there's always gonna be this crazy jig that ruins a lot of stuff in BYOR's. See: BYO Cards, where my Auto ability gave me a day to myself.

Worried about another SK?  Worried about a cult?  Worried about something ruining your plans?  Hi scum. 

I'm not quite sure (pun not intended... >.>) how you came to that conclusion. I was asked a question for "really common things" to look out for, so I answered to my knowledge. Even if I were scum, I don't think I would have any overarching plans on D1, and I'd be more worried about a cop or something ruining my plans.
But the main thing is, does my answering that way mean that I'm worried about something?

I find it interesting that you chose to make note about there likely being another SK or cult first in your reply.  Makes me think that those things are in the front of your mind.  Which is something that scum would be worried about.  And just because you may or may not have a plan on D1, doesn't mean that you wouldn't be worried about roles that could throw a wrench in your plans later. 

TolyK:
TolyK has been putting on a show for us!
...
To hide that he's doing absolutely nothing but wasting his time and ours.

Possibly, but I hope not.

Possibly?  You *hope* not?  Waffle around a bit more, scumbag. 

It would be better if I didn't waste your time, but it is what it is, from your point of view. I don't consider it a waste of time, and I hope you don't either, in the end.

@TolyK

He active-lurks. That was my whole thing against him. He’d not said much to anyone but those he didn’t know. I guess the rest of us weren’t important.

I don't hear much about passivity finding Scum.  Could you offer some links to help me find where passive play has been used effectively to assist and ensure Town wins?

This is really painting yourself as town. As in, this is like saying "I'm town", except "Help me work for the town's cause".
It makes you look as if you're trying to make yourself look like a fluffy bunny that's asking for help.
Don't you agree?

Not at all. What she asked was "When has passivity helped town?" and you say that she's trying to make herself look innocent and weak? No. You dodged a question. Answer it or admit that passivity doesn't help town.

I'm sorry if that's wasting your time, however it's mostly you who "wasted" it. It was never my intention to "promise a Broadway show", I was stating what I was going to do. Can you concisely state your case on me, please? And don't try to tack on unrelated things such as rolefishing, which there is no hint of in any of my posts. Thanks.

You dodging the question she asked you and active lurking aren't wasting time? Sorry. I thought they were. Because they are.
Summary: Lurk, lurk, lurk, don’t answer questions. He has a reason for it I’ll admit but I hope he makes actual use of the extension. If not then he’s going to gain some serious suspicion from me.

Actually, I've said more to the people I don't know, as far as I know. o.0
Dodged a question? No, I don't have any links on me, nor do I have time to follow them up. This was how I read it, so that's how I responded.

Wait, dodging what other question? This one?

Have you had enough pings yet?  Have you had enough of wasting time yet, both yours and ours?

Is this a question that should be seriously answered? Really?

And unfortunately, it turns out that answering questions is almost all I have time for atm.

Spoiler: Tolyk (click to show/hide)

Concerning Tolyk:

Worried about another SK?  Worried about a cult?  Worried about something ruining your plans?  Hi scum. 

Explains itself, really, though I don't agree. The relevant post is here

Long post

The spoilered bit is the most relevant.

The only one that really looks like it might have teeth is the bits pointing at Tolyk. The others seem like forgotten RVS votes or votes to try to spur people into action.

I still don't see the fact that I answered "what too look out for" with stuff that I think is quite possible means that I am worried about those roles existing.

Re:Summary of case on TolyK:

Your vote here... I don't get it.  The theatrics are nice, but they lack a conclusion.

Can you concisely state your case on me, please?

Imp:  Yeah ... can you give me a tl;dr about your case on TolyK?  There's a lot of fluff there.  [PPE: I see Toaster made the same observation.]

TolyK's been 'interpretive dancing', and not even doing the 'interpretive Scumhunting dance' which might be useful.  Almost every post he has made appears to me to be a stylistic form of active lurking.

His first post he says,

I won't ask any real questions yet

He asks the one question to three people, then does almost nothing since except answer others' questions and jerk his one question around like it's a magic key.  Always hyping it, nearly every post he makes it the target of focus and constantly refers back to it.  'Does things with it', like analyze those three responses on the most obvious level possible and .  If this is Scumhunting, he's doing it like an anglerfish hunts - and I'm by no means convinced that he's doing that either.  His show appears not to be -that- kind of show, and I fail to see how he's trying to lure anyone into exposing anything - instead it has the feel of illusion, and aggrandization, an attempt to industriously hide his lack of interest in Scumhunting by doing something else that he is able to feel enthusastic about - creating and playing this multistaged game of his.
It's something he can pour energy into and make it look like he's doing something every time he hypes again; it attempts to hide his lack of back and forth interaction  with anyone but us (he briefly answers questions, then puts focus back on his question).  He's identified us as newer players, he's most recently started 'coaching'.

Sorta. People asked for my advice in the beginning, so I gave it. Might not be very good advice, though, I can't guarantee.

TolyK:
I'm not quite following you with this one… Would you care to expound why you clump us all together?

You're all basically doing stuff I did when I was newer - going with the "I'm innocent, so why is what I say scummy?", "Lets help the town", "Oh crap someone said something about me it must be serious" (in order). Thus, I'm fairly sure you're all town, because I haven't found anything damning your case yet. However, I'll be looking for the time being.
Think of this as me testing you as a group.

I think this is his excuse to 'dance' through the game and hide his lack of focus on finding Scum, because he's 'to busy' to lift his eyes from the three newish (ahh, weakness, smell the blood in the air?  Rare is the newbie who can defend themself effectively) players that he's 'busying himself with'.

Nah, I'm just analyzing your play, as you said yourself, in my own kind of way.

TolyK:

Were you aware that you asked more questions in response to my challenge to you than you've asked the entire game before that point?

Nope, though that's certainly possible.

Added bolding for emphasis:

I think Cheetar, Imp, TolyK and you are the most engaged in the game and this is usually a good proxy for town. I found Cheetar a bit too passive at the beginning but he's done a fairly good job of explaining where he's coming from.

...
I'm usually even more wanting to play the game as scum, though, since that's rarer. So I don't quite agree with your logic.

Oh, but how you engage, would you say that's the same?  How can you have so much energy to put into building intricate riddles through multiple players' posts and keep up your Scumhunting too?  Oh, right.  You're playing your own game instead of Scumhunting.  I see it now, thanks!

I... don't quite understand the first question.

The first question asks you if your engagement - how you are playing the game, and where your focus is - is the same when you 'want to play more as Scum' as you are when you 'want to play less as Town'.

I'm not sure, to be honest. I think I'm equally interested both ways, but it takes more effort to play as scum.

I don't hear much about passivity finding Scum.  Could you offer some links to help me find where passive play has been used effectively to assist and ensure Town wins?

This is really painting yourself as town. As in, this is like saying "I'm town", except "Help me work for the town's cause".
It makes you look as if you're trying to make yourself look like a fluffy bunny that's asking for help.
Don't you agree?

Nope.  Sincere question, I meant every word I said.  Happens I'm a newbie, this is my third game.  The first two haven't ended yet; when you look at my ears that's not length you see; they're still wet.

None the less, if I am a rabbit you role fisher, you'd best consider me the Monty Python version, at least to Scum like yourself.  Beware the cute ones.

Role fishing? Seriously? You are trying so hard to "prove my guilt" that you are trying to tack everything even slightly related to it?

Nope.  It's not for me to prove your guilt, or innocence.  That's for you.  Granted, you're showing a heck of a lot of Scumminess - what I'm really doing here is pointedly 'failing the interview'.  It looks a lot to me like you're sniffing around for a good target - someone (or a few someones) to chuck stuff at to support your current and future active lurking activities.  One that's "a fluffy bunny" would do just fine, you seem to be saying.  I am not one.  I expect that I've made that clear - if not, keep sniffing.  I'll make it a lot clearer if needed.

This (role fishing) still is a false accusation, and you know it. The term you're describing is "target hunting", though it doesn't apply as well, unfortunately.

And unfortunately, your victim-interviewing behavior is NOT tacked on.  It's part and parcel of the active lurking you've done since your first post of the game.

*post*

*other post*

Neat. There's something here, but I don't have the time to look at it right now. Ping me later in case I forget.

Ping.  Ping.

Have you had enough time yet?

Have you had enough time to stop active lurking, or will you ever, this game?

Nope, I haven't, thank you.


Your whole argument, basically:
 - My style of asking people questions, analyzing posts and such is disagreeable.
 - Moreover, I haven't been asking many questions at all, due to low activity.
 - And I haven't been answering the semi-rhetorical questions asked, either.
 - I replied about a possible serial killer and/or cult once, in reply to a question of "what should we look out for?".

In fact, if I start "scum hunting" by your definition, your main argument falls through, right? But I've spent well over an hour answering questions (which you say I don't answer) instead of reading any of the other posts.
But if I start "scum hunting" by your definition, then it will look like I'm freaking out and trying to save my ass, right? Basically, no choice?
Well, shiver me timbers, I guess I ain't got no choice!


PPE:

TolyK:
Going to pretend to do any scumhunting over there?  I'm sorry that you "don't like asking many questions", but you could at least try to fake it to make yourself look less like a giant roadside scum attraction.  Or are you too busy worrying about third parties in scumchat?

From what I have seen, and from what I understand, scum tends to be more concerned about third parties than town does, as they can be a bigger threat to scum than town.  Plus, I *think* there are a number of third parties that actively inhibit scum's win condition, so scum will tend toward wanting to root out third parties over "scum" during the day.  Since TolyK mentioned third parties first as "things we should be looking out for", that set off a few bells. 

Wait, is that it? Your whole argument?
 You say you aren't concerned about yet another killer in the game? Or do you think scum doesn't want more townies dead for free?
I think your reaction would've been about the same if I had mentioned it last, since I think you might possibly be one of those same people worried about cults being mentioned.

What do you say? A giant roadside scum attraction? You mean, thing that attracts scum? Possibly, I'll keep that in mind, thanks Shakerag.


PPPE: What's the point of re-asking me questions?

[Nerjin]

I don't hear much about passivity finding Scum.  Could you offer some links to help me find where passive play has been used effectively to assist and ensure Town wins?

Actually, I've said more to the people I don't know, as far as I know. o.0
Dodged a question? No, I don't have any links on me, nor do I have time to follow them up. This was how I read it, so that's how I responded.
[/quote]

Hows about now. Do you see the question you never actually answered now? She asked that question and your response was not "It doesn't help town." or "It has helped town in such and such case." Your response was "Oh, you're trying to make yourself look helpless and get others to do the work for you.

[birdy51]

Alright... I shall completely blunt.

My will to play this game is absolutely dead right now. Right now, I am performing a disservice by sticking around, as I am honestly in no mood nor the right mindset to be playing right now. Simply put, my presence is not helping anything.

I will make an attempt to respond to any and all questions that have been leveled against me, but after that I cannot continue and I will ask for a replacement. Sorry for any inconvenience in advance.

[birdy51]

A warning and apology, as my temper is short in this particular segment. I still love you all, but right now I have no inhibitions.

TWS:

Birdy:

You can make an accusation against me, but if it's weak you better as hell, you'd best understand that I will press you on it. To defend one selves honor is just as important as infiltrating and finding the traitorous scum who would kill us in the night. Further, when one strikes lazily with a sword in the daylight, you don't stand there and let it cut you, like a coward might. Nay, you parry and strike a stinging blow in return!

O_o I can tell you were watching Zorro.

But anyway, of course you can defend yourself. But defending yourself doesn't necessarily mean voting the other person, does it?

And can you please answer this question:

I was scumhunting. What made you mistrust my intentions?

In this case, I wanted to apply pressure to you, and check your own intentions.

The accusation that I was rolefishing was completely and utterly stupid. Yet, you still defended it. That is why I distrusted your intentions. The only reason I don't think you are scum now, is because you bothered to rebuff Cheeetar for half-assedly supporting the bandwagon.


More later.

Birdy: You haven't responded to this post.

I know I promised more, but I really can't right now.

Get off your ass and actually do something different. You've fixated on me over half week. Find a new obsession and stop kicking a dog while it's down.

Summary of Events from my Corner.
   - TWS makes rolefishing accusation. Asks why I asked that question
   - I refuse to answer said question, instead countering why he thinks I am rolefishing.
   - He answers, keeping his vote there for the purpose that I dodged his question.
   - I reply to his first question, stating that I had asked the question out of curiosity.
   - Incessant bickering henceforth.
   
Imp:
   

Toaster and Birdy:

What you're looking for is the Too Townie fallacy.  It doesn't fly.

Thanks Toaster.  I was aware of that fallacy and wonder at how close our newbie games' Common Scumtells comes to it: 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Trying Too Hard To Appear Townie: There's no official name for this one, but being too concerned about your image; specifically avoiding things that might be seen as scumtells. The idea is that scum are very concerned about being found out, and so want to act nonscummy. Townies know they're not scum, so they're less concerned about LOOKING nonscummy and more concerned about finding scum.

But I hadn't connected it to play in Lylo.  Birdy, was that what you were trying to find, or were you looking for something else?
Birdy, when you ask Nerjin this:

why the late extension vote nearly three hours later?

You made me look closer at the extensions:

4 of 7 to Extend.

Need more extensions, please!

Alright, I'm willing to play along here. Extend you people not voting better get in gear.

That doesn't look weird to me.  When I look at the time that Nerjin posts his extension and three hours earlier - that's a 'deadtime', there's no posts at all there.

What makes Nerjin's extension vote late, and what is it three hours later than?

That was unfortunately not the link I was looking for. At this point, I'm wondering if I've just become absolutely crazy and I had imagined it existed.

Now, as for the extension. It's odd to me, because if I was scum that is exactly something I might do. When I throw out mid - extension votes as scum, chances are I really don't want the extension to pass. I'm willing to pretend that I want extensions as generally having more talking time is Townie thing to do.

Now, before someone claims that I just shot myself in foot, I would not have initiated an extension vote unless I  felt like we needed the extra time.


Cheeetar:

I know you asked me this somewhere but I cannot remember. No, it was not my goal to accrue a lot of attention. However, even if I do happen to die, my death can still be used to help the Town. Dying has a way of proving and solidifying people's intentions. Death proves innocence, thus it calls into question why people are voting who. It gives people something to read off of.

If that's what this game needs to finally get going, then hell yeah.


I am almost certain that I missed questions somewhere, so if there any finals questions shoot them at me. There is one last piece of business that I want to stick around for, as I've been waiting all Day for this. Quite literally, all Day.

NQT:

Normally, you are pretty damn studious my friend.  Yet, you've yet realize that you were the only person that I didn't address an RVS question to.

In fact, I've only actually been in contact with you once, and that was because you asked me a question. What gives?

[Teneb]

Deathsword:

Deathsword: Pretend your only night-useable ability allowed you to choose to either block someone (both from receiving or taking actions) or to redirect someone (again, that redirection applies both to actions targeting that player, and to actions that player tries to make).  Which would you probably use more often, and why?

Redirect. I really like redirects and it can, if used right or with enough luck, destroy the plans of scum or third party.

What do you look for when deciding where to place a redirect?

I'll redirect anyone I feel is scummy. Preferrably to another person I also find scummy.

Spoiler: @Deathsword (click to show/hide)

You only have two posts and the first was just you asking questions that you don’t follow up on and the second was just you agreeing with other players and slightly [almost a miniscule amount] pressuring Birdy51. Why are you lurking? Do you feel confident that Birdy51 is scum? Do you plan to actually participate?

Birdy's assessment of Toaster seems wierd, somehow. Especially his insistant claim that he feels Toaster is town. That implies he has knowledge that others do not. There is also the matter of him dodging questions, as you pointed out. As for activity, it'll increase from now on. (I know I don't have the best record when it comes to this, but I'm attempting to change that)[/quote]

Forgive me, but this seems a rather lazy brand of argument. You haven't even followed up on my responses. Otherwise, you might have noted that my claim is hardly insisting that Toaster is town. Also, I dodged "a" question, not "questions" as you might imply. Further, I have since justified said dodge, as I wanted to know why he asked the question in the first place. I realize that you are busy, but come now. Your attempt to justify what is essentially an RVS vote is doing you little favors.

A good game of Mafia cannot run on idle wheels.
[/quote]
You repeatedly dodged that question. Which I guess is worse. An RVS vote may turn into a lynch vote, as you are very well aware, if the voter feels that the votee has acted in a scummy way.

Your behaviour at RVS (saying you really believed Toaster to be town, implying you have information most other players do not) is still, to me, very scummy.

Deathsword— where are you?

At the time of your post I was in a very boring class. Right now I am posting.

Spoiler: Nerjin's TheIquovian analysis (click to show/hide)

My case on him boiled down to the fact that he was HEAVILY lurking and stated early on that he was lurking because there was no one to shift the blame onto… Seemed pretty damn scummy to me. Let’s see what he’s said in the mean-time.

While I'm touched that [Nerjin] read this much into me, I'm pretty sure that you're putting more effort into this than I am. Which is easy, since I am evidently a 'lazy bum'.
Alright, everything that's not #4 [[The post where he states he’s waiting to push blame onto others]] can easily be explained by my being a newbie, and a fairly quiet person. Not very good, but I never claimed to be.
#4 however, was a joke. I made a joke in my first post to try and lighten the mood, I don't think that's a lynchable offense. And right now, I clearly have plenty of blame to shift, that I have accrued in my role as a townie.

Yes, lurking can be explained by that. Not good? Sitting in the corner doesn’t help you get better! A joke is not a lynchable offense no. But it certainly didn’t seem like a joke at the time. Plus it can just as easily be explained as a newb-scum-slip that you’re trying to cover up now. No… I don’t buy that it was a joke.

Iqovian, what did you mean by that statement?

Aside from making a joke, it meant, essentially, 'the game has just started and I have nothing on any of you, nor do I have any reason to go after any of you. I am going to wait until the petty accusations start flying', which they have, hooray!

So your plan was to make a scummy joke and then lurk until you could jump in with someone else's argument? Nice.

The Iqovian, Tiruin— you guys still about? Got any read on the game yet?

I'm still about, but since I haven't been following this actively I don't really have any good reads. Aside from mindless distrust of Nerjin now.

… So… Do you plan to TRY to get good reads or are you just going to stick with an OMGuS?

The Iqovian
Your concern about aattracting attention somewhat ensure that you do attract attention. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Now you're back and paying attention are you going to press a case? Is your distrust of Nerjin enough to vote him on?

Actually, yeah I think I will.
He's a bit to quick to leap onto scummy behavior in day 1, and his only real evidence against me is obviously a joke.
Trying to lynch me for a low post count? Go for it. But for making a bad joke? That's reaching.
It looks to me like he's trying to get rid of me - a laudable cause to be sure - but I think his motives this time are more along the lines of 'killing all the townies', than de-scumming the docks.
I now place my vote for Nerjin.

Oh, I'm sorry. You're right. I guess I should jump on townie behavior day 1 because... What? Also, we have vastly varying definitions of "obviously" because I didn't see anything resembling a joke. They usually have punchlines. Yours did not. Work on that for me alright kiddo? I am trying to get rid of you though. I'll admit that. Why? Because you're the scummiest person in the game right now.
Summary: Scum scum scum scum scum… Either that or the biggest Fail-town I’ve seen in a while. I hope you continue playing man. I really do. You seem like a nice guy and all but your behavior is scummy as all hell and if it weren’t for the three way tie I’d be voting your ass right now. Either develop a better case than “Oh my god, you suck Nerjin!” or stop wasting my time with feeble attempts at defense. Please, if you’re paying attention to the thread at all, tell us your secondary scum-suspect.

"This person is definitely 100% scum because of off colour remarks and... he's scum! I won't vote him however, because I'm far more concerned voting this other person so I can get a lynch in!"
The sad thing is that your case against him could be completely destroyed if Iqovian could be bothered actually defending himself, instead of acting as uncertainly as he has. Have more confidence in yourself, Iqovian!

Cheeetar, Nerjin makes some very valid points. His (Iqovian's) "shifting blame" post was quite odd, and we only have his word that it was a joke. I did not see it as one, and it is pretty valid to think that he may be attempting to cover it up. You also ignore that the Iqovian has been extremely reactive, going only after Nerjin, who attacked him. The Iqovian appears to be merely content to deflect Nerjin's accusations with snark while you chainsaw.

Iqovian is my second pick to scum, mostly because you, Cheeetar, insist on defending him at every turn.

Here's a question for you, Cheeetar, were I to, in my first post (not as an answer to any questions, but spontaneously), claim that I would kill whomever was the most active during the day, and, later, when called out on it, claim it was a joke, believe that it was indeed a joke, or merely me trying to cover a slip?

[Shakerag]

TolyK:

Wait, is that it? Your whole argument?
 You say you aren't concerned about yet another killer in the game? Or do you think scum doesn't want more townies dead for free?
I think your reaction would've been about the same if I had mentioned it last, since I think you might possibly be one of those same people worried about cults being mentioned.

What do you say? A giant roadside scum attraction? You mean, thing that attracts scum? Possibly, I'll keep that in mind, thanks Shakerag.

Woah woah woah.  Stop right there.  Let me get my boots on before I respond because the bullshit is getting thick all of a sudden.

At no point did I say that I wasn't concerned about "another killer in the game".  If there is one, then absolutely I'd be concerned about that.  But I don't know that there is, and I have no evidence that there is.  So my main focus is on hunting scum which I quite reasonably assume is present, until something crazy proves otherwise.

And now you're OMGUSing* me over ... what? 

Call me crazy, but someone who has had some pretty passive play so far, become defensive to pressuring, and is intentionally twisting what I've said around in order to try and throw suspicion back on me ... is scum. 


*(yes, yes, I know there's no vote there.  I think the concept stands though.)

[Cheeetar]

Cheeetar:

By chainsawing I assume you mean pressuring, or? I honestly don't know what you mean by it. Anyway, he posted suspiciously and hasn't explained himself fully, and his only response to the suspicions against him has been changing his vote in the hopes that it'll stop people voting for him or something?

By chainsawing I mean that you are attacking Nerjin to defend The_Iqovian because the latter is your scumbuddy.  I don't think you had a strong reason to go after Nerjin other than to lower pressure on The_Iqovian.  Nerjin's vote on T_I looks more like a pressure/reaction vote, and your jumping on Nerjin about it seemed disproportionate.  (And Nerjin comments on this in the following post.) (PPE: Okay, Imp jumped in on this one.)

Yeah, somebody else cleared that up for me. I think Nerjin's reasoning was very faulty, so I voted for him. The fact that Nerjin is saying stuff like '100% sure that Iqo is scum' makes me think that maybe his vote for him wasn't just a pressure vote.

Alright, phew.

What, in particular, are you relieved about here?

Having an extension so we don't lynch a person with 3 of 13 people voting for them. A lynch with a hammer means much more material to scrutinise in the day following.

The sad thing is that your case against him could be completely destroyed if Iqovian could be bothered actually defending himself, instead of acting as uncertainly as he has. Have more confidence in yourself, Iqovian!

What.  The.  Fuck. 

What's up?

Hows about now. Do you see the question you never actually answered now? She asked that question and your response was not "It doesn't help town." or "It has helped town in such and such case." Your response was "Oh, you're trying to make yourself look helpless and get others to do the work for you.

Nerjin, Imp was asking me that question, not Toly. I'm beginning to think you may have a posting restriction.

Cheeetar, Nerjin makes some very valid points. His (Iqovian's) "shifting blame" post was quite odd, and we only have his word that it was a joke. I did not see it as one, and it is pretty valid to think that he may be attempting to cover it up. You also ignore that the Iqovian has been extremely reactive, going only after Nerjin, who attacked him. The Iqovian appears to be merely content to deflect Nerjin's accusations with snark while you chainsaw.

Iqovian is my second pick to scum, mostly because you, Cheeetar, insist on defending him at every turn.

Here's a question for you, Cheeetar, were I to, in my first post (not as an answer to any questions, but spontaneously), claim that I would kill whomever was the most active during the day, and, later, when called out on it, claim it was a joke, believe that it was indeed a joke, or merely me trying to cover a slip?

It depends- did it look like a joke to me? If I said in my first post of the game on Day 1, that I was mainly concerned with avoiding suspicion during the day so I could mafiakill as many people as possible during the night, do you think that would be a joke or did I somehow forget that if I were mafia I shouldn't be saying things like that? As your third post, I'm finding this very lacking, Deathsword. Here's a question for you: You think a scummy thing about Iqo is how passive and inactive he's being in the face of these accusations- do you think your inactivity is as scummy, or not?

[Toaster]

Work was long today and I'm too tired to use my brain much.  I'll get back to this.

[Cheeetar]

Having a huge post with only a small amount of actual substance does not inspire me into thinking the person is scumhunting or town. I think Nerjin is scummier than Deathsword, but not because he's posting more. Also- I did raise this concern with you! You FoSed me for being suspicious of it, and that got me thinking you were scum.

Uh oh, we might be in danger of talking at cross-purposes here. I FOS'd you because you seemed to be implying that you weren't town. We've been through all that. If you still have concerns why aren't you pressing me on them?

Being active is the easiest thing to fake as scum, and some people just naturally post a lot. Being inactive may be a tell, but I don't think it's wise to consider being very active a town tell.

You've got twice as many posts as the second highest poster. Are you trying to tell us all something. Cheeetar?

No, I was implying that I didn't believe your theory, and if you misread what I was saying so much then I'm not really sure what to do. It seemed like you took my very reasonable criticism (it's actually super easy to post a lot!) and then said 'but if you're questioning my post, and you have high posts as well... why, you couldn't possibly value being honest over appearing as town!'
Only non-town should be more concerned with appearances than speaking their minds.

[Hapah]

I don't understand what you're asking here.

No question; just wasn't sure if I'd gotten the reason behind the vote correct.

That aint me, yo.

Nope, quote's from TheWetSheep, same post as the correct quote right above it.

Whoops! Pasted in the text but closed the tab before I got the author. Sorry about that.

Hapah:  Pretty early in the game you asked a question about what one could learn about playing Mafia without playing the game.  Have you found that the skills and ways of thinking that you use for Mafia are pretty useless and really different from what you use in the other parts of your life?

I'll answer, but I'd love to know what you hoped to learn from my response. Most of my real life skills translate into Mafia okay, but not much of my Mafia-specific stuff translates out to my real life, if that makes any sense. It's mostly because in Mafia you have to be extremely cynical and critical, always looking for the deception, always trying to determine motives behind actions (which is the one thing that's really bled out into my real life, on reflection). I'm simply not that kind of person most of the time, but you have to have that mindset when you're in the game.

You say that the TolyK lynch has teeth but you're not voting. Do you plan to use your vote before the end of the day?

I say that because Tolyk's was the only one that had some sort of reasoning behind it, to me. The rest looked like RVS and pressure votes that had been forgotten.

Shake

Hapah:

Shake: Just to make sure I've got this straight; your reasoning for voting Tolyk is contained in this post, right?

Largely, yes.  My next post after that one called into question his choice of words.

I find it interesting that you chose to make note about there likely being another SK or cult first in your reply.  Makes me think that those things are in the front of your mind.  Which is something that scum would be worried about.  And just because you may or may not have a plan on D1, doesn't mean that you wouldn't be worried about roles that could throw a wrench in your plans later. 

What would you consider an acceptable response to the question, then? If he'd switched the 1st and 3rd lines would you have a problem with it? That's such a minor, minor detail to get hung up on.

His reply seems earnest to me, as BYOR's do typically contain all those things (multiple 3rd parties, extremely powerful/game-altering roles, and counterbalanced roles which means staying quiet on some abilities is a good idea). Do you have any issue with the content, or just the order of things?

I still don't see the fact that I answered "what too look out for" with stuff that I think is quite possible means that I am worried about those roles existing.

Oh no, I'm with you on that; I just spoke poorly. The votes on the other 3 players that were tied with you seemed to be more coincidences than cases; only yours looks like the accusers had anything at all to go on.

[The_Iqovian]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm a reasonably new player, I've played a few mafia games before and had decent amounts of fun.
The 'nor do I have any reason to go after any of you' was essentially my way of admitting that I really had no reads on anyone at the time. It wasn't a philosophical statement, it was sheer pragmatism.

So your plan was to sit in the corner and have a nice little cry until some other people got things done for you? No! That's not how a town player gets reads! READ THE BM'S! SITTING AROUND SUCKING YOUR DAMN THUMB AND SAYING "Oh well I'm new so I'll let the other players get reads FOR me." IS NOT TOWN DAMN-IT! GET YOUR ASS IN GEAR! IT WAS NOT SHEER PRAGMATISM! IT WAS SHEER LAZINESS!

I feel like he's scummy because he's taking the one thing he 'has' on me (a joke, as I and others have said) and just running with it like it's a football and he has a clear shot at a try.

Oh and by the way Hapah, it's fine to call me whatever. Iqov, Iqo, etc. Any reasonably obvious derivation of Iqovian is fine.

Alright that's fine. I can understand that. If you legitimately think that me voting you is enough of a reason to vote me back I can dig it. Who do you go after next? If you're not just Omgusing than surely you have a second scum-suspect lined up right? But... Maybe you are just OMGUSing me and don't really plan to PLAY THE DAMN GAME unless someone votes you first. Again I will ask you a question that you ignored, even though you bolded it: WHO IS YOUR SECONDARY SCUM-PICK AFTER ME?

I'm not voting for you because you are voting for me. I'm voting for you because of why you're going after me; again, I feel like your argument is based on my opening post (which, I repeat was jocular) being very scummy, and that the way you've followed up on this is rather scummy yourself.
Firstly, I'm pretty sure you bolded that, secondly, it was Birdy until they left, which kinda leaves that post empty now. I'm not really sure who my third scum-pick is though.

[notquitethere]

TolyK, Tiruin, Toaster— lurker tracker says you three still aren't voting. Day ends today and you haven't even committed to a case yet? If you have an ability which precludes you from voting then just say and tell us who you would have picked.

Birdy

Normally, you are pretty damn studious my friend.  Yet, you've yet realize that you were the only person that I didn't address an RVS question to.

In fact, I've only actually been in contact with you once, and that was because you asked me a question. What gives?

I pressed you for inactivity here:

Toaster, Tiruin, Hapah, Birdy, TolyK—
The lynch vote is the weapon of town, without it we can't win. It's getting pretty close to the end of the day: are you going to use your vote?

And I've been waitijng for you to get online. My time is a bit more constrained in general (I'm doing Nanowrimo and I'm active in another game) and full analysis with this many players takes hours, so I'll try and squeeze it in before the end of the day or, more likely at this stage, present a full analysis of Day 1 on Day 2, taking into account who pressed for what lynch etc.

We're none of us getting younger. Have you still not voted or did I miss it?

Shakerag

Also, so you suddenly know that The_Iqovian is town, eh?  How can you be so sure that he's town to ensure he's "doing his job"? 

Sorry what? I don't know if Iqovian is town or not. I try to get everyone to do their job as town and if they fail in this then they present themselves as lynch candidates. I don't want to end up lynching town players just because they weren't giving much effort.

So is your vote on The_Iqovian a lynch vote or a pressure vote?  Because it seems like your attention is mostly elsewhere rather than on your vote target.

It's a false dichotomy: there's a sliding scale. I want Iqovian to respond and if he doesn't and he continues to act scummily then I'll present an open case and move to get him lynched. He still hasn't responded so I'll continue to press him to respond. I'm more than capable of conversing with other people at the same time.

The Iqovian
Until I get a reply there's little possibility of my vote going anywhere else:

It looks to me like he's trying to get rid of me - a laudable cause to be sure - but I think his motives this time are more along the lines of 'killing all the townies', than de-scumming the docks.

Do you think that Nerjin has the weakest vote in the game then?

Do you even have a case?

[Toaster]

NQT:

Speaking of Imp, what kind of read are you getting on her so far?

Her case on TolyK is a lot of show and not much substance.  Odd, but no hard scum read from that.  My read is "keep an eye on her."

Toaster, Tiruin, Hapah, Birdy, TolyK—
The lynch vote is the weapon of town, without it we can't win. It's getting pretty close to the end of the day: are you going to use your vote?

Yes.


Nerjin:  Derp, I did miss your answer to that question.  A herp and a derp.

In this post, you state your reason for voting Birdy:

My reasons for suspicion on Birdy51 at the time were based primarily on the fact that he never answered the question “Why did you ask Cheetar if he was satisfied with his role?” instead of simply answering the question he got very defensive. Now onto his new posts to see if anything has changed:

Fair enough.  Then you go on to describe Iqovan:

Summary: Scum scum scum scum scum… Either that or the biggest Fail-town I’ve seen in a while. I hope you continue playing man. I really do. You seem like a nice guy and all but your behavior is scummy as all hell and if it weren’t for the three way tie I’d be voting your ass right now. Either develop a better case than “Oh my god, you suck Nerjin!” or stop wasting my time with feeble attempts at defense. Please, if you’re paying attention to the thread at all, tell us your secondary scum-suspect.

So... why are you voting Birdy over him?


Man, did I seriously attract that few questions?  I must be boring.

In any case, that was a catchup post; next is reviewing everything and exercising my democratic right to vote.

[Nerjin]

So... why are you voting Birdy over [The_Iquovian]?

Because there was a three way tie between Myself, Birdy, and Iquovian. My vote, being on Iqovian, was better served going to Birdy my second scum-pick. I'm fairly confident about both of them and a no-lynch doesn't help town at all. As I've said before, it's a matter of pragmatism. Sure I'd LIKE to be voting Iquovian, but for now my vote is more helpful to town while on Birdy.

[Shakerag]

Cheeetar:

The sad thing is that your case against him could be completely destroyed if Iqovian could be bothered actually defending himself, instead of acting as uncertainly as he has. Have more confidence in yourself, Iqovian!

What.  The.  Fuck. 

What's up?

Why do you feel the need to be Iqo's guardian and cheerleader?


Hapah:

Shake

Hapah:

Shake: Just to make sure I've got this straight; your reasoning for voting Tolyk is contained in this post, right?

Largely, yes.  My next post after that one called into question his choice of words.

I find it interesting that you chose to make note about there likely being another SK or cult first in your reply.  Makes me think that those things are in the front of your mind.  Which is something that scum would be worried about.  And just because you may or may not have a plan on D1, doesn't mean that you wouldn't be worried about roles that could throw a wrench in your plans later. 

What would you consider an acceptable response to the question, then? If he'd switched the 1st and 3rd lines would you have a problem with it? That's such a minor, minor detail to get hung up on.

His reply seems earnest to me, as BYOR's do typically contain all those things (multiple 3rd parties, extremely powerful/game-altering roles, and counterbalanced roles which means staying quiet on some abilities is a good idea). Do you have any issue with the content, or just the order of things?

First, my bit about his choice of words refered to this exchange:

TolyK:
TolyK has been putting on a show for us!
...
To hide that he's doing absolutely nothing but wasting his time and ours.

Possibly, but I hope not.

That seemed awfully wishy-washy to me.  Can't he be confident at all about what he's presenting to the rest of us?  If TolyK doesn't even have faith in what he's saying, what are the rest of us going to think?

So to specifically answer your question, if he had switched lines around would I have a problem?  No.  I don't have a problem with his response to NQT's question at all.

I would think it would have been obvious, but the whole deal about whether he mentioned cults and SKs first or last was just an opportunity to put some pressure on him to see how he'd react.  Did I, at the time, think he was decidely scum for mentioning cults/SKs first?  No, that's silly.  But it was an excellent chance to pressure him about it and see how he'd react.  And he reacted very, very poorly. 

If TolyK had just blown me off, given a decent reason, or even just kept a level head about it all I would have just moved on.  But he got defensive and even went so far as to try and twist my words into something I didn't even allude to in order to try and put suspicion on me and get me to back off.  That is why I think he's scum.