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Fivex's

4 (50%)

Before OOS

4 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 8

[Azthor]

Given how my western army did not engage yours in South France until Italy joined the war, one would think I -had- to wait for his men to join the front. That is hardly being late, or contributing little,  for that matter.

[Tarran]

Just like Italy in real life, joining the war late, contributing little and demanding its share of the pie.

...You know, I hardly stated it as demands. I simply said I would rather just have the islands instead of the islands AND western Africa when Fivex mentioned it. Would you prefer it if I demanded Aragon from DreXav instead?

[Andrew425]

I mostly said it as a joke.

We don't have to be as hostile towards each other as we already are. At least from my point of view it seems their is a bit of actual animosity. I just want it to be known that if i've been acting rudely or arrogantly i'm sorry it came across that way.

The way I see it is we can either settle it with a money amount or we can spend the next 6 game sessions dragging it out until we settle on a WP as you guys will get bored of being permanently blockaded. Your choice

[Tarran]

Well, I honestly don't care much about cash. Only about the islands, but even then I'm not really interested in smacking the crap out of everyone else. If it wasn't for Azthor's involvement in the war, I would've just sat back and ate Naples.

But I am also not a major partner in this war. Just a secondary. And I don't have any clear goals. So I leave the negotiation up to the other three that are allied in the war with me.

[Azthor]

Understand, I bear no will towards any of you, but I also know well enough that if I let my disposition ease too much here, right now, I will be more lenient than is proper and healthy for France.

Letting a war like this go with a slap on the wrist isn't a way of improving diplomatic reactions, it is a way of paving the path to a future war I may not be in as good a position to wage. Andrew, I believe, may not wish to pursue a future war, for, if not for Spain's wayward African expansion, our interests would not conflict; DreXav, on the other hand, clearly seems to hold a grudge, and Twiggie was far too willing to march half a world away to try and pommel me to the ground, after which he'd have no doubt demanded I release Bohemia, if not even part of the Netherlands.

With that in view, if I must lose further income to continue this war, I must not only seek to regain what I've lost in resources, but also leave you in a position that you won't pursue, or drag for as long as you seem intent to, one of these wars as lightly as you did this time around. Were I altogether indisposed to care for you as players, I wouldn't even consider reparation of damage, I'd instead be waging this war to put you out of the game for once and for all with no possibility of lesser terms or future recovery.

Of course, if we have to fully occupy Spain and Russia, and then, should Andrew insist we are not paid reparations, a costly campaign against England, I see no choice but to impose the aforementioned draconian terms, possibly all the way down to near balkanization.

In this case, the current demands for an immediate settlement I'd propose are: the release of Denmark, for the Hansa,  the Italian islands, for Italy, northern Africa, for the Mamluks, and a large sum of gold (the war's duration worth of army maintenance, 500 for the DotF and 1 year worth of french income), for France. Others may also desire money on the side, though I am probably the only one whose interests are solely founded in financial reparations. I do not believe any of these to be crippling of the three nations involved and, truth be told, had you won after France joined the war, your demands would likely have been all the more harsh. The above is, of course, subject to Tarran, Isdar and, particularly, Fivex's evaluation.

Edit: fixed a typo, post otherwise unchanged.

[Tarran]

Somehow I feel as though the war will never end between the immovability of my allies and the immovability of my enemies. Sigh.

...the war's duration worth of army maintenance, 500 for the DotF and 1 year worth of french income...

Um, how much is that exactly? I'd imagine that being pretty extensive.

The above is, of course, subject to Tarran, Isdar and, paritcularly, Fivex's evaluation.

The loss of money due to troop losses for me need not be repaid, as it was a fair loss in fair combat. Neither do the loans have to be repaid, as it was solely me who took them.

[Azthor]

Somehow I feel as though the war will never end between the immovability of my allies and the immovability of my enemies. Sigh.

...the war's duration worth of army maintenance, 500 for the DotF and 1 year worth of french income...

Um, how much is that exactly? I'd imagine that being pretty extensive.

Something akin to 1400+500+90/month, as army maintenance fluctuates between 80 and 100. Hardly unfair, given how I am making no territorial demands to speak of and had to take 5 loans between army expansion, purchasing the DotF and paying said army maintenance, not to mention trade losses, military points spent on generals and the diplomatic points lost in going over my diplomatic cap.

[DreXav]

DreXav, on the other hand, clearly seems to hold a grudge, and Twiggie was far too willing to march half a world away to try and pommel me to the ground, after which he'd have no doubt demanded I release Bohemia, if not even part of the Netherlands.

The English alliance is downright appalled by France's repetitive duplicity thorough the history of this conflict and prior to it, all the more as this offensive against hostility of the Mamluks began only after agreement of non-involvement from the French government:


Those talks took place directly after France followed the Mamluks into coalition against Spain upon learning it's intentions of moving against the egyptian muslims. An agreement was struck, despite it being very heavy-handed by France as well as being contradiction of French previous claims of not being supportive of muslims. That duplicity and heavy-handedness was swallowed, as the importance of punitive expedition against the Mamluks was paramount - that nation has displayed open hostility and insistently threatened the Spanish people every time they would settle in Africa, it's neighbouring continent, and the exotic lands to the east, striving for cultural and economical exchange.
The Spanish people were fine with co-existence of both nations in the aforementioned lands. The Mamluks would have none of it and claimed entire continents, unthinkably vast amounts of land that they couldn't settle in any near future, where Spain already held significant and developed influence.

That DreXav insists France is against him is merely a resentment fueled assumption due to the later not sending its whole army to kick Fivex out of north Africa for him.

It is now obvious that France and the Mamluks were in cahoots for a while now, with the latter being agent of French agenda. An agenda hidden under facade of lies and deception, driven by outright malice as the following events will show.

Upon declaration of war by English proxy, a war that wouldn't have happened if the French haven't struck an agreement with Spain, the French immediately turned hostile and demanded the Inglo-Spanish offensive to pull out, revealing it's duplicity and shocking the international scene.

The Russians are the most commendable nation in this entire conflict as they had no direct interest or agenda, with their lands distant and troubled, but have nonetheless stepped in to mediate and maintain the sanctity and integrity of diplomatic agreements in the international scene.

Unfortunately for everyone, the French couldn't be persuaded to stay sane and honorable, and decided to further impose it's tyranny by joining the war in support of infidels against it's christian friends and long-standing allies, a behavior all the more shocking and deplorable as France was the custodian of the Holy See at that time (thanks to Spain pulling out influence in the curia PER AGREEMENT). The Russia was forced to honorably uphold it's word against it's best interest, joining the conflict ONLY AFTER France did.

Let there be no illusions that this lamentable conflict that has claimed thousand of lives and shattered the European friendships, was ultimately caused by French malice. On that account, the English alliance cannot accept any French claims of loss nor agree to give in to the severe injustices it proposes.

In the light of the abominable reason behind escalation of this conflict, the English alliance proposes cessation of all hostilities, with Spain depositing 5000 golden ducats in banks of Italy, for it to distribute among their own alliance. No more can be willingly given as the nations of English alliance treasure justice, integrity and honor as their utmost values. For them to give in, would be to forsake those values and therefore deem the nations themselves unworthy of existing.

All rests with sanity and sense of justice of the Italian and Hanseatic people, who's support is the only thing holding Mamlukian alliance together. This conflict, if not resolved quickly and amicably, will reach a point of no return, bringing many decades of vicious fighting as well as cultural and economical stagnation. Very, very long-feeling decades.

[Chosrau]

I'm missing one session and suddenly stuff happens.

[Azthor]

While none of the above truly matters, as I've already told you the nature of that agreement is that the agreement was void, as I never consented in will. My two options were to watch Fivex get ganked, while your Russian friend peeked through the border, and bark at you, or to join the fight, at the risk of losing Bohemia, if not more, and show you I am fully willing to lay down a beating if Russia won't stick to the east, if Spain insists on facepalm-inducing goals.

That Spain relied on England to circumvent the coalition in place, greatly angering the british people, says more to the effect of your honor than it does about ours. How long will your people stand the rule of such madmen, willing to sacrifice all of them and their sovereignty so that they may entertain some petty bravado.

You are, however, trying to argue with a lawyer, so I shall simply point out that, as I never received the SEA port, nor did you wait any amount of time which might allow you to claim you had reduced your influence in the Curia, the deal had yet to take effect in any way or fashion. More importantly, by explicitly circumventing a coalition and jumping the gun at the smallest sign of non French intervention, you further soured any would be dealings and sealed your fate.

What Russia truly tried to do was to use you to either diminish the Mamluk expansion eastwards or, perhaps, to cripple one of my would be allies; what Twiggie failed to notice, however, is that the Hansa would not be much more fond of it expanding towards Europe than I was, nor were my early threats concerning its expansion all bark and no bite.

We all know, however, that I refuted your scheming against the Sunni every single time you approached me., always refusing to join the conflict on your side. I'd rather not have had to wage a costly war, and would likely have left it if the Ottomans were around to come to the Mamluks's aid, but they weren't, and quite honestly, I am just plain more supportive of Fivex's agenda than yours. Far from successful, your attempts at dividing us are only fueling the coalition's hostility, for you seem to fail to understand, over and over, that this war is lost for you.

Even then, luckily for you, whether or not 5000 is an acceptable peace offer falls not upon me, but my allies; I stand by the minimum demands I listed for France, but if they are willing to settle this for a small sum of gold instead of land, or whichever else they might favor, that is their decision to make. Rest assured, however, I will not as much as entertain the notion of a separate peace.

[DreXav]

While none of the above truly matters, as I've already told you the nature of that agreement is that the agreement was void, as I never consented in will.

Spoken like the unrestrained warmonger you are, proving time and time again that the French know nothing but deception, manipulation and arrogance. Your consent was clearly presented in the evidence provided. As you have pointed out, you argue with the deceitfulness of a lawyer, twisting facts and trying to excuse yourself with the most ridiculous interpretations. And we all know you lawyers are tools for the foul to escape justice.

If anything is facepalm worthy in this entire situation, it is French presumption of what constitutes as Spanish growth.

[Tarran]

You know, it seems like more and more this war is just a vendetta to prove who is right between you two. With you two being comparable in strength, and tenacity, I question whether either of you need anyone else in the war to settle it for yourselves. It would be far better for everyone else, and chances are far more fun, if you two would just fight your own war.

I'm missing one session and suddenly stuff happens.

Hahahah, yeah, it sort of took off like a rocket. It's amazing how much of a cascade one war caused.

In the light of the abominable reason behind escalation of this conflict, the English alliance proposes cessation of all hostilities, with Spain depositing 5000 golden ducats in banks of Italy, for it to distribute among their own alliance. No more can be willingly given as the nations of English alliance treasure justice, integrity and honor as their utmost values. For them to give in, would be to forsake those values and therefore deem the nations themselves unworthy of existing.

All rests with sanity and sense of justice of the Italian and Hanseatic people, who's support is the only thing holding Mamlukian alliance together. This conflict, if not resolved quickly and amicably, will reach a point of no return, bringing many decades of vicious fighting as well as cultural and economical stagnation. Very, very long-feeling decades.

This runs into the problem that Isdar does not want gold, he wants the PU with Denmark to end and as far as I know nothing else. I don't think it would be fair to him to end the war without that, especially as Twiggie is faltering already.

Regardless, I also feel as though we need to have some kind of promise that neither of you will attack Fivex again and bring in the other right afterwards.

Even then, luckily for you, whether or not 5000 is an acceptable peace offer falls not upon me, but my allies; I stand by the minimum demands I listed for France, but if they are willing to settle this for a small sum of gold instead of land, or whichever else they might favor, that is their decision to make. Rest assured, however, I will not as much as entertain the notion of a separate peace.

For reference, you want somewhere around 7300 gold. Finally did the calculation.

[Twiggie]

Yeah I just find it a little strange that he said pretty much nothing to me at the time, and all of a sudden he's crying for blood.

Such is life I guess...

[Azthor]

For reference, you want somewhere around 7300 gold. Finally did the calculation.

Has the war been going for  60 months? :O

You know, it seems like more and more this war is just a vendetta to prove who is right between you two. With you two being comparable in strength, and tenacity, I question whether either of you need anyone else in the war to settle it for yourselves. It would be far better for everyone else, and chances are far more fun, if you two would just fight your own war.

I do not quite see it that way, for not only do I not have a point to prove, as it goes without saying that France and Spain are hardly matched in strength if considered alone; it doesn't take much tenacity to press a war after the most expensive part of it has been fought. I don't want territory in Iberia, the Americas or India, I have no conflicting interests with Spain other than the protection of the Mamluks; and yet, after the war has came this far, is it any surprise I'd like to get at least a positive cash balance out of it?

The so called vendetta is but an attempt by DreXav to try and deny, however strangely, the point of which he waged a war and, it would seem thus far, lost it. In sum: since I chose not to side with him, clearly I must be the dishonorable adversary who robbed him of his rightful victory.

[Tarran]

For reference, you want somewhere around 7300 gold. Finally did the calculation.

Has the war been going for  60 months? :O

The game doesn't say exactly, but yes, the war has gone on for 60 months. Though I think you might have joined in a tiny bit later. Still, lot of money.