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[WanderingKid]

I'm afraid all of my great and glorious plans for a large 'ore gathering launch bay' just went out the window, because of the hauling interface and its priorities.  You can't send a cart between say, Stops 1 and 4, skipping 2 and 3.  Some poor hauler will drop by, drag the cart over to stop 2 manually, and it will continue from there.  I had thought that as long as the cart was at any stop, it would be a valid location and it would get instructions from that point.

I can't locate anything that'll lower the priority of the stop order vs. the current stop precidence.  Is there anything like that in the interface?

I thought about using a 'stopless' track system, but without a stop it can't be loaded nor can you initially place the track vehicle.  I suppose this can be done with a dead-depot for the return carts so they can be dragged back to their proper start positions after they've been fired, but I was hoping to automate this a bit more.  Carts of varying weights could be used, I suppose, but that's far too complex for my intent.

For a visual explanation of what I'm trying to do, imagine this simple loop as a more complex system:



I want to be able to push north from Stop 1, and let it go to 3.  From 3, I want it to push south to stop 1, never caring that 2 got involved.  Right now, it pushes from Stop 1, goes to 3, then some poor dorf comes and drags it across the floor to stop 2.

Any ideas?

[SOLDIER First]

Well, maybe you could use a loop system with stops 2 and 3 on separate loops from 1 and 4, using levers and track switches to send the minecarts where you want them to go. Not sure if that will work, but..

[WanderingKid]

Really, the idea is to have 5+ carts share a track and enter a loading bay, and not care which bay they load into.  Something like what you're describing would be easier just to have side by side rails, if I understood you correctly.

[SOLDIER First]

Do you have the stops like this
1 2 3 4
or this?
 1  2
 3  4

[WanderingKid]

Do you have the stops like this
1 2 3 4
or this?
 1  2
 3  4

End up being more like this (apologies for the rough drawing, kinda did it quickly):


An expandable minecart bay that I could load multiple carts into/out of the same line, and have them return to any possible bay that's open without needing further work, just loading.  The problem is if the hauling routes enforce stop order, then that's not an avialable option.

[SOLDIER First]

oh. I'm really sorry, but I can't really help- not a lot of experience with minecarts.

[WanderingKid]

No worries, I appreciate the attempt.  My guess is currently it can't be done at all, or someone would have done this back when all the original minecart science was being performed.  I've got an alternate idea that'll just require a bit more dorf-labor than automated cart returns, but be roughly equivalent.   It's just a shame, I was really looking forward to making this work, as I could see multiple improvements to the system by running different lines to different places depending on who needed a new cart between glass/clay/ore, things like that.

If there was a hopper style system (where you could drop things into a minecart on arrival) that'd allow for better automation, but currently that's not available either, so I definately need a stop for loading.  Ah well, back to more science to determine how well a load can survive a drop chute, and how far you can drop it without spillage.

[Gen]

While I have yet to experiment with DF minecarts, possibly the notion that you need is to set your tracks as a 'web and hub', that is to build linear sections with a stop at each end (or more accuratly, one in the vein you mine, one at your dump site).


There is muliple disadvantages to such a system, both the mass of track, but also in the fact that because of mining, that means even more loads to empty and the whole thing becomes a bit of a joke.

The other notion would be to include a return loop, thus do a bit of 'signal computing' to have the dump site in a loop that continues the cart to the points, then back down to where it came from. Thus pathways are opened/closed by the passage of the carts. So in the situation described, station 2 is blocked until you want it. Of course by this point things are getting rather complex.


Personally? Wheel barrows and lines of 'take stockpiles' to the main dump is my prefered way of doing things.

[Larix]

Minecart routes are at heart quite simplistic, they only account for a single cart going through the stops in a fixed order. A cart in an 'out of sequence' location is always considered misplaced and will be re-located _by hand_, even if there's a safe track connection.

I haven't gone far into actual minecart hauling - just stayed with single-lane systems for most actual uses. My attempts at automation were rather  unconvincing, even with a single cart - it seems the dwarfs have trouble properly keeping track of multi-stop routes. I used lever-operated doors to 'send' carts from one stop to the next, and the dwarfs decided the cart had no right to be at stop 3 and dragged it back to stop 2.

With multiple loading stations, you'll probably have to make it so the cart will only return to its 'proper' loading bay which cannot be used by other carts (hmmm, distinguish by weight? There aren't very many usable plate settings, unfortunately).

Edit: example for weight-based cart switching into 'associated' loading bays - this requires the carts to be empty when approaching:

Code: [Select]

.A.A.A.A.A
1R2R3R4R5R--f
.a.b.c.d.e
.|.|.|.|.|

Carts come in from the west, moving east, each 'R'oller sits on top of a SE track corner, pushing west. If a roller is powered, it reverses the cart and pushes it around the corner to the south. There are gear 'A'ssemblies serving each roller.

Pressure plates on the straight track, 1-5, are linked to the gear assemblies powering the rollers immediately east of them. All plates are set to trigger on track vehicles, using the weight settings - first plate for weights over 100kg, second >250, third >300, fourth >350, fifth >400. Originally, all assemblies are engaged and all rollers are active. A wooden minecart won't trigger any plate and is diverted by the very first roller, ending up in branch a. An aluminium minecart will trigger the first plate and turn the first roller off, but fails to trigger the second plate, so the second roller stays active and sends it into branch b. A tin or pewter cart can pass the first two rollers but not the third... a silver cart activates all pressure plates and disengages all gear assemblies, turning all rollers off and landing in branch f.

100 game steps after a cart has passed, the pressure plates reset, engaging the gears again.

I haven't tried this out, but it should work.

[Halceon]

Do you have the stops like this
1 2 3 4
or this?
 1  2
 3  4

End up being more like this (apologies for the rough drawing, kinda did it quickly):


An expandable minecart bay that I could load multiple carts into/out of the same line, and have them return to any possible bay that's open without needing further work, just loading.  The problem is if the hauling routes enforce stop order, then that's not an avialable option.

You can have 5 routes that share a dump-stop, but you can't have them share load-stops according to availability. You'll need to have cart 1 for stop 1, cart 2 for stop 2 and so on. And, most likely, have dorfs actually ride them. A pushed cart will not turn in intersections according to intent. It'll stay with its momentum.

Alternatively, you can create track switching with doors or bridges. Add to that pressure plates and some way to stop the carts... Either way, you'll still have the problem that carts are not at the stops they've been assigned to, so all of that would be wasted effort. Switching is a good option for distributed dumping, but not for distributed collection.

[WanderingKid]

Personally? Wheel barrows and lines of 'take stockpiles' to the main dump is my prefered way of doing things.

You'd have to see the ore veins I've mined to understand why this went from 'oh, I'll do one of these eventually' to 'Okay, THIS is the fort I need to do this in...'   

Minecart routes are at heart quite simplistic, they only account for a single cart going through the stops in a fixed order. A cart in an 'out of sequence' location is always considered misplaced and will be re-located _by hand_, even if there's a safe track connection.

Agreed, was hoping there was an avoidance technique.

Pressure plates on the straight track, 1-5, are linked to the gear assemblies powering the rollers immediately east of them. All plates are set to trigger on track vehicles, using the weight settings - first plate for weights over 100kg, second >250, third >300, fourth >350, fifth >400. Originally, all assemblies are engaged and all rollers are active. A wooden minecart won't trigger any plate and is diverted by the very first roller, ending up in branch a. An aluminium minecart will trigger the first plate and turn the first roller off, but fails to trigger the second plate, so the second roller stays active and sends it into branch b. A tin or pewter cart can pass the first two rollers but not the third... a silver cart activates all pressure plates and disengages all gear assemblies, turning all rollers off and landing in branch f.

100 game steps after a cart has passed, the pressure plates reset, engaging the gears again.

I think I figured out an easier way, and one that is more effective for speed to make sure you don't end up with jam ups.  Get your carts to speed where they're able to derail on corners without a wall and then use gears for on/off statuses which are instant.  But unfortunatley getting into a weight splitting complexity is far beyond what I wanted to do in a game.  I'm not entirely sure how to apply that concept to a weight structure, I was working it out with generic carts, but I think it could be done.

You can have 5 routes that share a dump-stop, but you can't have them share load-stops according to availability. You'll need to have cart 1 for stop 1, cart 2 for stop 2 and so on. And, most likely, have dorfs actually ride them. A pushed cart will not turn in intersections according to intent. It'll stay with its momentum.

There's workarounds to that problem.  I can get them all on the same track leaving the bays.  It's getting them back to location that's becoming the problem.  Also, ridden carts work like pushed ones, they work by momentum and physics, at least according to the wiki.  They'd have to be guided carts... which is somewhat problematic with a drop chute. 

The difference between "Push" and "Ride" is whether the dwarf will go along with the cart or not. When set to "Push", the dwarf will give the cart an initial push, not enough to go up a ramp, but enough to go some way along flat track, and the dwarf will remain at the first stop, ready for a new job. When set to "Ride", the dwarf will give the cart the same initial push and then hop aboard the cart riding with it to the next stop.

Thanks for your input, folks.  It looks like I'll just have to create a dead drop for the carts on the return trip as close as is safe for my dorfs to just drag carts back to the starter locations.