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Author Topic: Sharing the World and all that jazz  (Read 13742 times)

Harlander

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Sharing the World and all that jazz
« on: July 15, 2001, 04:36:00 pm »

Is it likely that Armok will store the worlds in such a way that they could be swapped between computers?

If it is true, it could be really cool to have a thing like Hearse for Nethack, (which exchanges bones files between players). Also, perhaps having one world that people play in one at a time, changing and adding to it like a complicated piece of interactive fiction.

When the game moves further along, will there be ways of getting statistics on things? Like, the numbers of people in a town/civilization/continent, or the numbers of species and their relative populations, and such?

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Alanor

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Re: Sharing the World and all that jazz
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2001, 11:25:00 am »

hehe
after my own heart there...

Yes Harlander this is something we have discussed.

I actualy wanted to eventualy have an online world that anyone could load up and play in..
so that we could interact with each others ghosts.. and retired heroes and such...

That would be awesome.. but it may still be a far off feature.

Tarn is using fractal algorithms to generate geography and random seeds to generate worlds..
hopefully this will allow us to have very cool worlds that we can send around.

This is most important for our eventual "traditional world" where orcs are orcs, and elves are elves...
and random monsters are *less* evident.

We plan to put the possibilities for all sorts of creatures in.. but it would be cool to all be fighting the same dragons sometimes eh?

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Alanor
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Harlander

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Re: Sharing the World and all that jazz
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2001, 01:26:00 pm »

Well, I was actually going to suggest a world in which multiple players exist and act simultaneously.. Then I woke up from my dream of a world where everyone has all the time they need to do whatever they want.  :p
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Toady One

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Re: Sharing the World and all that jazz
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2001, 02:34:00 pm »

I guess the only addition I have is that there are a few senses in which "world-sharing" is being used:

a) Exchanging world save files after playing games so that successive players can add on to the same world

b) Exchanging world generation data so that the same world can be played over again without the influence of previous games

The first one is simple -- the world is already stored that way, in a number of files that keep track of the materials, maps, species, etc.  The exchange can be done already (and would be, if the game were further along :) ).  Alanor and I have exchanged species and item files a few times while testing, and it works.  Successive games just alter these files.  They aren't tied to a given computer in any way.

I've laid down the groundwork for the second type of world-sharing, as Alanor mentioned, with random number seeds and so on.  The genre-atmosphere-plot system will allow a player to generate some more data (as described in... lessee...  I think the Overhead section of the future page), which will interact with the seed to generate a world.  This data will be saveable and exchangeable (including the seed), so that two players could conceivably simultaneous explore the same world on different computers (to see who comes out with "on top", or just for fun/to compare notes).  After ten or twenty good games on each computer, the worlds would look very different.

Later on, if there's enough support, I can extend the editors to allow more control over preset worlds.  My brother has expressed some interest for example in making an Ancient/Medieval Earth setting that has the well-known land forms and a collection of historical empires (perhaps with glaring anachronisms).  You could also take a preset world and mess with the genre-atmosphere-plot settings...  say, set the plot switch on Earth over to "Impending World Destruction" and watch how the Mayans, Chinese, and Romans deal with it :)

For statistics, do you mean as a player or as a user in the broader sense?  For the player to discover these stats on these things, they'd probably have to go to some kind of authority...  say, a druid for the animal/plant stats, and a royal clerk/census taker for the population stats.  For the user, I'd have to make a "world interpreter" that acts on the save files we've been discussion.  That would be more of an add-on -- but in-game stats should be fairly easy to get, but they probably won't be entirely accurate or sweeping (the druid might know only their specialty animals, etc., and the clerk might make mistakes if they have crummy math skills and are over-confident, or bragging).

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Harlander

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Re: Sharing the World and all that jazz
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2001, 04:53:00 pm »

Well, really, I was thinking of both.. in-game statistics would probably add to the game, and out-game statistics would be cool for detail freaks such as myself.  :p Would it be possible for the game to log these stats, and a statistics program to graph them? Then one could retrieve a population graph and point to the part of the graph that shows a 90% downturn whilst beaming proudly and announcing "This is where I set loose the World Reaver and brought the fires of the underworld to the surface.."

I have a suggestion for another type of editor.. one that would outline plans for various types of things that could form part of a storyline, if a player wishes more direction than just living out their legend in a strange world. The outlines could be randomly adopted and adapted to fit the world as it is. Of course this may not be needed if the game can spot situations that might give way to a small storyline and make one on the fly as it were.

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Alanor

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Re: Sharing the World and all that jazz
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2001, 05:33:00 am »

That really hits on the point of random quests Harlander.  And yes.. this has been considered.  I think that random quests will come naturally from the personality of hte NPCs in the game.  Plots should develop naturally from your surroundings rather than having preset thigns that you need to do every time you play the game.  There may be a couple giant quests that we will include in the entire game.. but those are up for thought right now... ehhe Amulet of Yendor anyone?  (of course it might be a bit more complicated in armok!)

As to multiple people playing in Armok at the same time.. well.. I doubt you will see it soon.. maybe some day.
I am actually working on some stuff right now that may some day turn into a MMORPG... wiht thousands of people running around in a world that is more thought out.. adn more workable than certain games like "evercrack".

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Alanor
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Toady One

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Re: Sharing the World and all that jazz
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2001, 12:52:00 pm »

I guess it would be a trivial operation just to have the game log stats in a text file (which hopefully wouldn't grow out of control).  You could take that info and plug it into Excel or some such thing.

Plots have been considered, sure, but not that much.  The whole genre-atmosphere-plot system needs a lot of fleshing out.  The type of plot system that Alanor mentioned (coming from personalities) is the "emergent" plot system, which is the least structured.  During world creation, there will be a plot setup screen (which can of course be set to "random" or "emergent" if you don't want to know what the plot is or don't want one at all) where you can set parameters to your liking.  What did I write in the future section <checking>...

Okay, I wrote this :) -->

Plot:  The genre and atmosphere can set up the actors and locations, but they won’t be interesting unless they interact.  There are various plots that can be overlaid on the entire game universe, specific regions, or even within towns and entities.  Here are some simple ones:  end of the world (town), struggle of opposing forces, lone powerful nemesis, general expansion into frontier.  More complex and specific plots can be developed based on the goals of individual creatures.  The general overall plot here is just to give the universe a direction, if you even want one.  If the plot is set on “Emergent”, then the plots will only be generated by individual creatures and entities as they struggle to achieve their goals.  Thus, in order to play a fairly standard unstructured game, you might set the genre-atmosphere-plot to “Standard-Balanced-Emergent”, or “Standard-Standard-Emergent”.  There will also be a “Random” option for plot in case you want the universe to have some sweeping structure, but you don’t want to know what type (genre and atmosphere can also have “Random” settings, but that could lead to some really strange games!).  There is also the question of momentum – myth fantasy might “degenerate” into standard fantasy as the powerful creatures are killed off and the gods become less interested in the world, or it might be headed toward a massive end of the world confrontation.  Momentum is part of the plot, although things could happen (especially where the player is involved), and momentum might change (or the whole plot could fall apart).  In general, the universe generator will try to place enough interesting creatures, items, and locations for the world will stay exciting.  There will also be a creation myth and pre-game history, etc. that will utilize the genre, atmosphere, and plot that the user selects.  The pre-game history will introduce many specific actors and props to start things off running, if desired.  This history will be available depending on how the various entities pass down knowledge (you might make it a goal to uncover the mysteries of the past, even as the present is raging around you).

----------------ok, that's it

The Plot creator (along with the Genre/Atmosphere creators) would probably be an editor like Harlander describes.  Once the universe is already running, a plot editor would be more difficult, since all of the actors would already have motivations and so on that run along existing plots/personalities.  Adding a plot at that point would be jarring, but technically possible...

There are a few problems I suppose.  It will be difficult to make scripts as attractive as an actual preconceived plot, although with some effort we should be able to get close enough.  There is also the matter of getting the player to stick with the plot -- by the nature of the game, the player would never be compelled to follow a plot to its conclusion.  However, as the world will naturally be thrashing about quite happily on its own, there will be "time limits" in the sense that if the player following a plot doesn't act quickly enough, he or she will fall off the wagon (important town destroyed, actor killed, etc.).  It would be more difficult to make the game "wait", as most games with preconceived plots do indefinitely.  That is, if you decide to kill the constantly respawning orcs to gain experience for four or five game years, that messenger will still be waiting in the next town over to give you a letter that advances the plot.  Armok will have some trouble being so forgiving, since the messenger or town might not be there waiting after the forces of darkness destroy them.  Offhand, I can think of a few solutions:

a) too bad, you messed up.  Missing a plot doesn't end the game, since there are other things to do.

b) if the plot is incredibly important (perhaps determined during plot creation), I could try and make Armok react to accidents like a good DM/GM would -- that is, either don't let accidents happen unless the player would expect them (by making certain places and creatures "untouchable" by non-player forces), and if accidents do happen, introduce a plausible new actor or event to pick up the story line.

a) is easy, b) is harder.  Although since b) would just use the mechanisms that create plots in the first place, the possibility of implementing it is linked to the possibility of introducing plots in the first place, which is something I need to do anyway.

There's a good sentence.

All right, back to algebra...  3D modeler still in progress...  I have been taxed lately, although I think there's a new computer on the horizon now.  That'll be nice...  I'm getting surprisingly good frame rates on my junker, so I can do some stuff now.

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