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[Bauglir]

So, I, like every other tabletop gamer, am working on a game. This one's designed for play over the internet, and I'm planning to build a client for the game that will connect to other players, display character icons and information, provide helpful pointers for common tasks like attack rolls, and an interface for chat and dice rolling. After being way too slow about assembling this*, I am starting to actually make progress. The first couple of pages of this thread were posted before that was the case. I'm currently posting small snippets of the rules, with the first post that's relevant to the current incarnation of the game here. I'm looking at Big Damn Heroes as the working title, although I expect that to be copyrighted to hell and back. It's just a good description of what I'm going for - the core assumption is that you're playing exceptional people doing exceptional things, saving the day left and right.

What that means can vary from game to game - the setup runs from level 1 to level 10, and is meant to be nonlinear about it. At level 1, you're an ordinary child. At level 4, you're a huge badass. At level 10, you're a living legend, a being of transcendent power and might, on par with the greatest deities and the fiercest horrors from beyond the furthest stars. It goes without saying that the game should feel very different at each level, and a default assumption is that character advancement does not imply level gaining. You'll still improve your statistics and such, because this is an RPG and that's kind of a big part of the genre, but you can't expect to start out slaying rats and wind up slaying nightmarish demons within a month.

The game is also about being a goddamn hero, and I'm setting out to model that with an enormous emphasis on a heroism point mechanic, which in addition to the standard "manipulate luck" powers that go standard with such a thing, are required for efficient advancement, unlock special powers in times of trouble, and let you manipulate the story in order to make it your story. Hopefully I pull this off in a way that does what I really want.

What I really want is a game that underscores that the rules are a framework for telling a cooperative story. They aren't an obstruction to get in the way when you want to do something awesome. They aren't sacred text to keep the players (or the GM, for that matter) in line. They're a springboard to get you where you want to be - having adventures with your buddies. They're there to provide inspiration, guidance, and shared assumptions about what the story is like. There aren't too many games that try to satisfy both gaming and storytelling perspectives, and I've heard a lot of people insist that they're inherently antagonistic camps. I disagree, and hopefully I'll produce some evidence one of these days.

*When people say you should not start your game design career with the One True Game, they're fucking right. This project has been razed and rebuilt from the ground up at least twice, and not a scrap of the rules text from when I started remains.

The below spoiler holds previous contents of this post.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So, I've been working on a game for a while, and somebody pointed out that I should really make some effort to gauge interest in the concept before I continue plowing ahead. If nobody actually wants to play it, it might well be a dead end. Also, you guys seem like a pretty good fit for my target audience, so why not use you as a vaguely representative sample.

This would be an original RPG system that's specifically designed for online play, rather than tabletop play. Currently, options for this are limited to using programs that allow you to play existing tabletop games. As far as I know, there is no game that's intentionally built to use this medium. The webcomic presents a good analogy, in that you certainly can just imitate the original medium and still produce great content, but there's a lot of creative space that can be explored if you're willing.

Is this a viable niche? That's basically what I'm asking. I'm hoping I'm not just overenthusiastic over the whole thing.

EDIT: The OP has been edited heavily for clarity. What I removed is spoilered below, in case you're curious about the first few posts in the thread and the context they appeared in.

*********OldSpoil Begins Here:*********

Anyway, so the goal here is to create a tabletop-like game that's designed to be played online, using video chat or instant messaging to communicate with other players in real time. I'm calling the idea a desktop RPG, but I have no idea how many people have come up with the term before (probably lots). The idea is to create a game that can take advantage of what a computer can do, but is fundamentally built as a tabletop game. So you still have a GM, homebrewing is pretty much a writing exercise and doesn't really take coding knowledge or a special toolkit, etc. Store the rules on a wiki, with the official ones having editing restrictions, for instance. Gameplay through something like Gametable, though with additional functionality to handle stuff idiosyncratic to the game, particularly what you can't really do by hand in a reasonable time frame.

Anyway, I know that like everyone else with the Next Big Game Idea, there's a good chance I won't be able to follow through, but I am seriously considering trying to actually put this together. Learning the programming I need, researching what other games do, etc. Does this sound like a concept worth working for to you guys?

[kytuzian]

It's good. I don't want to crush your dreams or anything, but a similar program already exists. It's called map tools (I can get the link later if you like).

What you should probably do it download it, look around at it, and see what it is missing. That would give you a better idea.

There is definitely interest in such a program, but you need to innovate to make it worth people's time.

[Bdthemag]

There's also roll20, which is a browser-based version of maptools. So uh yeah, not really a super original idea.

[Bauglir]

Huh, aren't those tools used to play a game rather than a game itself? I mean, I even linked to a program that does something similar in the OP, so it's not like I'm unfamiliar with the idea of such a program. They all seem to be designed to run games that are, themselves, designed for physical tabletop play.

How can I make the idea I had clearer, since I gave completely the wrong impression in the OP?

[Parsely]

Wait, what is your thing actually going to do? I don't get it.

[Bauglir]

The thing would be a roleplaying game. In the same sense as D&D, Burning Wheel, GURPS, what-have-you.

It's just that it would be designed for online play, using an interface that would be similar to those programs. It's going to need its own client to make that happens since some of the features are pretty idiosyncratic; there's a lot of design space that's opened up when you're aiming at a medium that can automate lots of stuff, so there are things I could do that would make no sense to include in a client that is designed for people playing traditional tabletop games. There's also some closed-off design space in that transition, obviously, but I feel like that's being explored pretty thoroughly already by existing games. Is the problem that I talk about this part too much?

[Parsely]

The thing would be a roleplaying game. In the same sense as D&D, Burning Wheel, GURPS, what-have-you.

So it would be an original RPG system that would play like a traditional tabletop that would be online and you wouldn't need to use any peripherals? Because that sounds like a cool idea.

[Xantalos]

So basically it's what would happen if you modified Skype to run D&D?

[Bdthemag]

I'm just confused as to why you'd even want to make a game INTENDED for online play. I can't really think of any interesting potential features that are required to do online, that can't just be done in person.

I just don't know why you'd do this, instead of just making a normal homebrew game.

[Parsely]

I'm just confused as to why you'd even want to make a game INTENDED for online play. I can't really think of any interesting potential features that are required to do online, that can't just be done in person.

I just don't know why you'd do this, instead of just making a normal homebrew game.

"Why play it online?" So you don't have to do it in person of course! Silly! Then Bay12 will become an RPG superpower! No more play-by-post for us!

But in all seriousness, Bdthemag is just being cynical. Its a neat idea, since it would enable friends that don't have the means to play in person to still be able to play together, barring play-by-post on a forum. And play-by-post isn't as much fun anyways, since you can't actually talk to people. And IRL chat sessions are just as limited.

[Xantalos]

I'm just confused as to why you'd even want to make a game INTENDED for online play. I can't really think of any interesting potential features that are required to do online, that can't just be done in person.

I just don't know why you'd do this, instead of just making a normal homebrew game.

"Why play it online?" So you don't have to do it in person of course! Silly! Then Bay12 will become an RPG superpower! No more play-by-post for us!

But in all seriousness, Bdthemag is just being cynical. Its a neat idea, since it would enable friends that don't have the means to play in person to still be able to play together, barring play-by-post on a forum. And play-by-post isn't as much fun anyways, since you can't actually talk to people. And IRL chat sessions are just as limited.

Again: Skype modified to run D&D. This sounds awesome.

[Bauglir]

So basically it's what would happen if you modified Skype to run D&D?

And also modified D&D to run on Skype.

I'm just confused as to why you'd even want to make a game INTENDED for online play. I can't really think of any interesting potential features that are required to do online, that can't just be done in person.

I just don't know why you'd do this, instead of just making a normal homebrew game.

Possibly you have friends located far away, but want something faster than a Play by Post. Perhaps you'd rather let a computer do the arithmetic for you. I dunno, it just seems like a useful niche that isn't being filled, although honestly I do appreciate criticism because it helps me focus my design philosophy. Answering questions is never bad. People-who-can't-play-in-person is definitely a main target, but I've got to admit that my ideal result would be a game that can stand alone as something people would actually like to play on its own merits, not just something that's the best place to settle.

Also, a computer changes the kind of complexity you're allowed to use. Instead of requiring steps that are simple to execute in order to streamline play, you need to focus on steps that are simple to input. For instance, in D&D, you're restricted in the kinds of dice you can tell people to roll by what's physically available. Tell somebody to roll a 8d7k3 in a tabletop game, and they'll first have to work out how to simulate a d7, then roll that 8 times, then sum the three highest, and that's going to take too long to be a viable game mechanic because your book will be in the trash by the time they finish reading this paragraph. It's pretty trivial to type that into a program that just generates random numbers, though.

EDIT: I could conceivably use division as a game mechanic. Division by numbers other than 2 or 10, even!

[Bdthemag]

Yes, but there's very little point to using unorthodox dice for a game. There's literally no point in doing it, besides just the novel of using a d7. The current kinds of dice are used primarily because they provide a nice probability in terms of being able to succeed at tasks, and because they just work. Any kind of division that isn't dividing by two and rounding up is useless, and I see no need to needlessly add complexity to something for the sake of it. Unless you can start throwing out good ideas for these particular ways of rolling, then it'll practically be useless.

Running online games without using a play by post system is also rather easy. You can use multiple kinks of mediums including Skype, IRC, Maptools, Roll20.net, etcetera. You said you're not just making a client, but making a game intended for this kind of play, which makes absolutely no sense as I can't really think of anything particularly interesting you could add to the table by having a client do all of the math work for you.

Here are a few questions, since I'm skeptical of the vague idea and vague plan for this. What are the base mechanics of this game you've been working on? How are they going to take advantage of the capabilities of a computer? Do you have any coding experience, or do you "plan to learn as you go."?

I'm not trying to destroy your idea or anything, but it just isn't clicking with me. Maybe it's because I'm tired and my reading comprehension is shit, I just don't see the point. I've run multiple online games through various mediums, and accomplished exactly what you described in the OP. Almost every RPG is easily transferable to an online medium.

Frankly, I just see it as a niche that is already fulfilled and I think your efforts would be much better placed if you just worked on a normal system. If you're really deadset on the idea, then work on the base system first and present it for critique.

[kytuzian]

Sorry that I misunderstood.

In this case, I would say that I support it. Depending on what you're planning on using to make it, I might even be able to help you program it.

[Bauglir]

@bdthemag
The base mechanic is a roll-and-keep thing. XdYkZ, where X is a skill level, Y is natural ability (D&D's ability scores), Z is a general measure of how awesome you are (which allows me to balance open-ended growth with a reasonably-constrained RNG). Damage is dealt to ability scores instead of hit points, and then there's a small stack of heroism-related mechanics that let Important People mitigate the win-more consequences that typically follow from that sort of rule. Ability scores have a cap directly tied to level.

So, justifying this example as something worthwhile. It gives you what I think is a better way of representing a character's abilities than the closest analogue, which is probably L5R's roll-and-keep system, which uses d10s and rolls Skill+Ability, keep Ability. In the version I'm writing, training lets you take advantage of natural talent, but everyone who's at the same level of existence is still playing basically the same game. At the same time, we've got a built-in mechanic for applying penalties for taking damage (something that people seem to love trying to implement, but which almost always works out to be overly complicated). That mechanic adds no additional complexity to the game, and actually gets rid of a number the player would otherwise have to track. It also builds a way to tell the player what happened to the character right into the system - taking damage to Strength says something different than taking damage to Intuition.

This would be a pain to deal with in a paper game, but can be pretty easily handled by a menu that keeps track of your ability scores, and a die roller that allows you to use a reference to an ability score (so, for instance, you could type S instead of your Strength score). I honestly don't think you could make it fun without a computer taking care of the grunt work.

At any rate, unorthodox dice is just an example of something you can do that can be helpful, meant to illustrate that there's a lot of design space opened up. It's a reason why the game can create a somewhat different experience than a tabletop game, instead of just serve as a substitute because you've got nothing better. It's in the same vein as using animations in a webcomic.

For what it's worth, I have only a little bit of programming experience. I've written up a couple of programs to help me work out probability distributions and that sort of thing so that I can understand the statistics here, but nothing that has a real UI. I'm binging on a number of courses in the hopes of fixing that, but fortunately this is not the core of the game. I know enough about this to know that I don't need to do anything fundamentally clever on the programming front. I need to learn how to implement a GUI, and how to do networking, which I expect to take a couple of months to learn at a basic level, but at least it's a clearly-defined goal.

----------------

@kytuzian

I appreciate the offer! Right now, I'm hoping to solo the thing. If I find that I can't, I will probably save up a bit of cash ($800-$1000 is probably the price range I could wind up affording in a reasonable timeframe) and post an offering somewhere, and I'll try to point you toward it. That's in the future, though, once I've got enough of the system fleshed out to have proper design specs, which I definitely don't yet. And assuming interest is high enough to merit that kind of investment, which so far it's looking like it might be.