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This is another experiment isn't it

[GlyphGryph]

I never said Zimmerman claimed stand your ground, which is still irrelevant - the law was still the reason the police claimed their attempt to investigate and bring charges was turned down.

And your irrelevant example of the terrible consequences that could have resulted from a guilty verdict is... pretty irrelevant. Try to use examples where the person isn't actively committing a crime against the self-defender as the action that caused the interaction, and where it's not happening on the defenders property -you clearly understand it's changing the situation or you wouldn't be using it in your example. It's dishonest. Because those are big, significant differences. You could be using examples that support your point, they certainly exist, but that you choose to use this one reflects poorly on you.

Homes have special protections under US law already, and even if Zimmerman had been found guilty there is almost no chance of that ever being carried over to being attacked or threatened by trespassers.

[mainiac]

Zimmerman might have made some dumb decisions, but... he did nothing illegal.

Correction, he did nothing that could be proven in court.

Now it's better to let a guilty man go free then to imprison an innocent man.  But they could have done a lot, lot better defending him if the police hadn't wasted 41 days of time and made things so controversial by waiting until mass protests to launch an investigation.

[MadMalkavian]

Since it happened in Florida and didn't involve anyone I know personally it doesn't matter to me but if I keep on hearing about this every single goddamn day I'm going to be more irritated with the whole of humanity than I already am. Otherwise this is just another reason why I'm glad I don't have cable hooked up to my television.

[palsch]

If both parties are armed in Florida, say Trayvon was also armed, could they have engaged in a perfectly legal lethal gunfight?

Yes.

I linked this case before but the new link is a better summary. It was a gang shootout where (allegedly) a single shot from one side was responded to with around 24 rounds from an AK47, killing a 15 year old on the other side. Both sides claim the other opened fire first.

During a pre-trial Stand Your Ground hearing two of the men accused of manslaughter (including the one holding the gun) claimed self defence. They convinced the judge and gained complete criminal and civil immunity from prosecution for the death.

The man who drove the victim to the gunfight plead guilty to manslaughter and got three years.

That site has a solid collection of SYG cases, including those where no charges were filed due to the law and those where the defence failed. Some other cases that jumped out on a first glance;

Domestic stabbing by an 18 year old's legal guardian after repeated confrontations and fights. Granted immunity on appeal.
Shooting of a burglar who was fleeing the scene. No charges brought.
Stabbing in a hotel room with no witnesses. No charges brought.
15 rounds fired at his ex-wife's boyfriend. Both sides claim the other had planning to kill them. No charges filed.
Man shot in the back of the head climbing out of the water after a fight. Jury acquitted.

Another stabbing with no witnesses. 15 year old woman claims she took and used her attacker's knife when he tried to sexually assault her while she was drunk and high. Found guilty of murder. Fuller details on this one.

[Zrk2]

If anyone cares for my two cents I think Zimmermann's a racist shitbag, and probably was guilty, but it could not be proven.

[Sergarr]

I wonder if that "Stand Your Ground" law could be used for terrorism...

[GlyphGryph]

Palsch, can I just... repost that elsewhere? That's a nice little wrapup list and explanation some people could do with hearing.

[PatriotSaint]

If anyone cares for my two cents I think Zimmermann's a racist shitbag, and probably was guilty, but it could not be proven.

The guy who tutored black kids for free and is a Hispanic (Hispanic, not white, dammit, how many times does it have to be said...) is racist?

[palsch]

Palsch, can I just... repost that elsewhere? That's a nice little wrapup list and explanation some people could do with hearing.

Feel free. Now I've edited out a couple of typos...

[penguinofhonor]

The guy who tutored black kids for free and is a Hispanic (Hispanic, not white, dammit, how many times does it have to be said...) is racist?

I find it hard to believe nobody has told you that white and non-white hispanics exist yet.

Also I'm guessing you skipped over this Palsch post but you should read it:

I'd recommend the link I just posted;

What began as annoying 911 operators with pointless complaints escalated to notifying the authorities any time he saw a black male he didn’t know. The argument that he’s not racist and wasn’t profiling is based on the fact that he “mentored black children” and “had black friends” and is entirely beside the point, because it presumes that he’s an overt and deliberate racist. Those who make it claim victory when they demonstrate that he never wore a white hood or bedecked his body in Nazi ink.

I’ll grant that that Zimmerman didn’t pine for the days of short ropes and sturdy limbs.

I’ll grant that he didn’t dream of goose-stepping down the Champs-Élysées in his dress browns.

But I won’t grant that race didn’t color his judgment when it came to young black men with whom he wasn’t personally acquainted. From 3 August 2011 forward he’s increasingly — and almost exclusively — concerned with unfamiliar black males in his apartment complex. Maybe confirmation bias is more the problem here than racism, but the fact remains that the bias being confirmed is that young black males are suspects until proven otherwise. You can’t look at the 911 calls in the months immediately prior to the shooting and argue otherwise. (At least not honestly.) He transformed from a harmless nudnik into someone very concerned with the presence of unfamiliar black males, which at the very least means that by 11 August 2011 his worldview contained the category “Unfamiliar Black Male” and that the presence of people belonging to it warranted calling 911.

That’s indisputable.

He doesn't have to have been some sort of secret Klan styled racist to have had racial biases that coloured his treatment of Martin.

Again, the Cobb piece on how this type of racial bias is not called out as racism, mostly because it's so common lots of people whose identity tells them they can't be racist (they have black friends!) hold such views. And if non-racists believe it it can't be racism. It's just the way the world works.

And beyond all that, even if Zimmerman is a complete anti-racist it doesn't change the fact that a great deal of his support has been tinged with racist defences of profiling and racist attacks on Martin.

[PatriotSaint]

So if it happened that Zimmerman had any white heritage, he is therefore a "creepy-ass cracka"

>.>

[GlyphGryph]

The guy who tutored black kids for free and is a Hispanic (Hispanic, not white, dammit, how many times does it have to be said...) is racist?

The amount of wrong fit into this one sentence is pretty damn amusing. Being Hispanic doesn't make you not white any more than being Scandinavian or Slavic makes you not-white - you can be 100% Hispanic and 100% white.. Tutoring black kids for free doesn't mean you're not a racist (but probably means you're not a complete asshole). You don't have to be white to be racist against black folks! You just plain don't have to be white to be racist.

Now, despite how hilariously weak a statement you made, I don't think there's much evidence of Zimmerman being racist or racism being the issue here. Had the situation been identical but Trayvon been white, what I've read so far indicates Zimmerman probably would have acted the same way.

[PatriotSaint]

No, my point is that to some , he his racist for the sole reason that he has any white heritage, and that he shot someone in self defense who happened to be black.

With that unlogic, if he's not racist, he's not white! (duh, all you creepy-ass crackas)

[penguinofhonor]

How about you look at his actions instead of just chanting "creepy-ass cracka" until someone agrees with you?

But I won’t grant that race didn’t color his judgment when it came to young black men with whom he wasn’t personally acquainted. From 3 August 2011 forward he’s increasingly — and almost exclusively — concerned with unfamiliar black males in his apartment complex. Maybe confirmation bias is more the problem here than racism, but the fact remains that the bias being confirmed is that young black males are suspects until proven otherwise. You can’t look at the 911 calls in the months immediately prior to the shooting and argue otherwise. (At least not honestly.) He transformed from a harmless nudnik into someone very concerned with the presence of unfamiliar black males, which at the very least means that by 11 August 2011 his worldview contained the category “Unfamiliar Black Male” and that the presence of people belonging to it warranted calling 911.

[scrdest]

How about you look at his actions instead of just chanting "creepy-ass cracka" until someone agrees with you?

But I won’t grant that race didn’t color his judgment when it came to young black men with whom he wasn’t personally acquainted. From 3 August 2011 forward he’s increasingly — and almost exclusively — concerned with unfamiliar black males in his apartment complex. Maybe confirmation bias is more the problem here than racism, but the fact remains that the bias being confirmed is that young black males are suspects until proven otherwise. You can’t look at the 911 calls in the months immediately prior to the shooting and argue otherwise. (At least not honestly.) He transformed from a harmless nudnik into someone very concerned with the presence of unfamiliar black males, which at the very least means that by 11 August 2011 his worldview contained the category “Unfamiliar Black Male” and that the presence of people belonging to it warranted calling 911.

I'm not going to quote myself, I heard you can go blind from that (), so:

There had been a couple of burglaries in the area prior to the shooting. There was an ethnic (in this case, black) gang in the neighborhood. Gangs commit crimes. Burglary is a crime. So if you are going to suspect someone for committing a crime, it would be a gang.

Since the gang was exclusively composed of black males, sighting of an unfamiliar black male in slightly suspicious circumstances may lead someone who is hell-bent on stopping the burglaries to start suspecting said black males of being gang members and the burglars he had been looking for.