Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Thearpox]

Although... Thear, why is "5mm" better than "5.56"?  It's just one character less.  Granted, it does have a double, but still.

More like 2.5 five characters. 5 vs 5.56.  Come On! We have to save RAM space, and wasting bytes is no way to behave!

And besides, whole numbers are always better for comprehension. Taking out $1 is always easier than $0.95.
And why doesn't the 5.56 have mm at the end? How do I know it's mm and not inches? Why make it 5.56 and not 6, isn't 6 bigger? Isn't bigger=better?

[GreatWyrmGold]

5.56 is a caliber, not a measurement. To be more specific, the 5.56 is short for 5.56X45, or 5.56 NATO, who specified the caliber. Meanwhile, the 5 mm bullets are five millimeters...wide, I think.

[syvarris]

Both of you are correct.   The full name is 5.56x45mm NATO.  5.56 millimeters wide, 45 long.  There's two reasons it's not confusing to call it 5.56- one, that's common shorthand for the round.  Two, 5.56 inches would be more tank sized, and it would be easy to tell that it isn't that from context. 

Also, if you're going to play the "Confusing" card, 5mm is more confusing and inaccurate.  First, there's actual rounds which are called 5mm.  Second, it isn't five millimeters, it's 5.56.  Third, if you do that to 5.56, then you have equal reasoning to call every other 5.x round a 5mm, like a 5.7.  And the difference between those two is big, but not enough you could tell which someone is talking about just from context.

Why do I feel like I'm just feeding a troll...

[GreatWyrmGold]

You're feeding one guy passing on trivia learned from a friend and one guy who I assume is confused.

[Toaster]

Since hand-to-hand combat isn't the focus of the game,  I'd minimize the ammo calibers.  "Pistol Ammo" may fit pistols, revolvers, SMGs, and Uzis.  "Rifle Ammo" would fit everything larger.  That way, if you have three types (standard, hollow point, incendiary or something) then you still only have 6 gun ammos.  Probably best to keep it simple here.

[Thearpox]

Both of you are correct.   The full name is 5.56x45mm NATO.  5.56 millimeters wide, 45 long.  There's two reasons it's not confusing to call it 5.56- one, that's common shorthand for the round.  Two, 5.56 inches would be more tank sized, and it would be easy to tell that it isn't that from context. 

Also, if you're going to play the "Confusing" card, 5mm is more confusing and inaccurate.  First, there's actual rounds which are called 5mm.  Second, it isn't five millimeters, it's 5.56.  Third, if you do that to 5.56, then you have equal reasoning to call every other 5.x round a 5mm, like a 5.7.  And the difference between those two is big, but not enough you could tell which someone is talking about just from context.

Why do I feel like I'm just feeding a troll...

And why do I always have this sinking feeling in my chest when someone decides to seriously answer one of my jokes. Really.

You know what I would find hilarious...

If this wasn't a clear indication enough, this: "Come On! We have to save RAM space, and wasting bytes is no way to behave!" , and this: "Isn't bigger=better?" should have ticked you off.


     But to answer you on a semi-serious note,:
Calling it 5mm instead of 5.56 would still make it less confusing to someone who's never played a shooter, seen a round, and somehow avoided all knowledge of firearms and ammo. So this:

Also, if you're going to play the "Confusing" card, 5mm is more confusing and inaccurate.  First, there's actual rounds which are called 5mm.  Second, it isn't five millimeters, it's 5.56.  Third, if you do that to 5.56, then you have equal reasoning to call every other 5.x round a 5mm, like a 5.7.  And the difference between those two is big, but not enough you could tell which someone is talking about just from context.

is irrelevant, because why have any rounds that are not full inches milimiters in this game? It doesn't matter if they exist or not in the real world. Just don't add them to the game! And yes, having it weapon-bound makes more sense.

[syvarris]

I think that's the third time I've read one of your joke posts and taken it seriously.  I should probably work on my detection skills, because I parsed those as more insulting than joking.  But still, could you please put a [/sarcasm] or something in?  For the less perceptive of us?

In general I just have trouble with not answering a question when it's about something I'm knowledgeable about obsessed with.

Anyways, this argument is going nowhere fast, so I think I'll just drop it.  It's really a matter of preference, and most people would probably prefer that we use generic ammo names.  I have no idea how I managed to get in an argument about something so minor to begin with...

[Thearpox]

I think that's the third time I've read one of your joke posts and taken it seriously.  I should probably work on my detection skills, because I parsed those as more insulting than joking.  But still, could you please put a [/sarcasm] or something in?  For the less perceptive of us?

In general I just have trouble with not answering a question when it's about something I'm knowledgeable about obsessed with.

Anyways, this argument is going nowhere fast, so I think I'll just drop it.  It's really a matter of preference, and most people would probably prefer that we use generic ammo names.  I have no idea how I managed to get in an argument about something so minor to begin with...

It was kinda both. The idea was a joke. The argument is behind it is serious.

As for why we got into it, was because I always found it funny how a game (not giving examples) could be insultingly inaccurate historically, have a story written in a drunken stupor, a "drew it between classes" art design, broken gameplay, and yet have proper ammo sizes. I mean, the one thing the creator bothered researching for his game were the ammo sizes. And not just sizes, but to the hundredth inch! milimeter! Seriously.

[piecewise]

So I'm thinking of ways to work this so that it is relatively simple, but also realistic in a sense that the ammo types seem to come from somewhere in the game world. That they seem real, not just some number on a piece of digital paper. There are a few ways that I could do this.

The first was kindly provided by Cael:

Have a sort of Universal ammo-the "pistol ammo" "Revolver ammo" "Rifle ammo, thing- with different effects, but also have smaller groupings of ammo that work with just a few specific weapons. Ammo made by the weapon makers or by deals between weapon makers and smaller ammo producers. This way, you can have a standardized ammo for people who don't want to fuck around but still options for people who want to shop around a bit.

OR

I build backwards. Start by making up the manufacturers and the rounds they make. Assign some common sizes among them and then say what kind of sizes of ammo each gun can take on the gun itself. Ie We have sizes 1-8. Revolvers take 1-3, pistols take 1-2, rifles take 3-5. Shotgun takes 6.  etc.

What does the gun nut think?

[mastahcheese]

I like the second idea, then you could also add in the different manufacturers to the storyline, and possibly even make them unique in some way. Or at least identifiable.

[The Ensorceler]

   Are you thinking of implementing the different techs with drastic differences in their ammunition? For example, a paintball style hopper would be an easy way to supply a steam-tech machinegun with pellets, which would be cheaper and than bullets because they don't have primers or shell casings, but tend to be less accurate and do less damage individually (plus the incomatibility across techs). On the other end, you could have clock-tech needleguns, with long, skinny projectiles taking the opposite route.
   There could even be differences within a given tech (the weapon manufacturers?) ranging from more traditional (that clockwork repeater) to less traditional firearms, like straight steamblast shotguns which act like a really hot blunt impact instead of firing actul projectiles.

[Thearpox]

Not sure I understand the second idea. So you're just grouping all ammo according to size, and then having different kinds of guns accept different sizes? No more depth to it?

If so, I like Cael's idea better. Easier to understand, more familiar, makes more sense. And if the idea behind the second one is to be able to use the same ammo for different weapons, I seriously question that it would come into play. Unless you make ammo forbidingly expensive. (Which once again would make melee weapons viable.)

PS: If we're going for the whole techs competition and conflict, making it be different between techs sounds awesome. So I'll second Ensorceler.

[syvarris]

I'm the gun nut, right?

First idea is fine.  It's simple and quick, and not at all confusing.  Second idea is also good, assuming you don't mean ALL revolvers can take any of three type.  Between them, I guess I'd prefer the second

My preference would be similar to the second, but there's only three main sizes.  Pistol, intermediate, and rifle is what they're called in the real world.  Within each size are two or three types that most guns of that size use, and each of those types has a basic description of it's traits.  Those traits don't actually need to affect the bullet.  It's just a number and name, and possibly a weight.  The guns would actually have the stats.  So a person can look at ".22 SMGs" and find a bunch of guns that have the traits of a .22.

Now you have me thinking about this...  If you want, I could easily write up a short list of calibers, each with those traits. 


I like the idea of ammo being very expensive.  As Thear said, it gives a better reason to use melee weapons.  It also makes things like "This type of ammo is cheap" more important.


Oh, and irrelevant to whatever you choose, I suggest you have proprietary ammo that's used in only one or two guns, is extra expensive, and is better than most other guns in that category in some way.

[piecewise]

I'm the gun nut, right?

First idea is fine.  It's simple and quick, and not at all confusing.  Second idea is also good, assuming you don't mean ALL revolvers can take any of three type.  Between them, I guess I'd prefer the second

My preference would be similar to the second, but there's only three main sizes.  Pistol, intermediate, and rifle is what they're called in the real world.  Within each size are two or three types that most guns of that size use, and each of those types has a basic description of it's traits.  Those traits don't actually need to affect the bullet.  It's just a number and name, and possibly a weight.  The guns would actually have the stats.  So a person can look at ".22 SMGs" and find a bunch of guns that have the traits of a .22.

Now you have me thinking about this...  If you want, I could easily write up a short list of calibers, each with those traits. 


I like the idea of ammo being very expensive.  As Thear said, it gives a better reason to use melee weapons.  It also makes things like "This type of ammo is cheap" more important.


Oh, and irrelevant to whatever you choose, I suggest you have proprietary ammo that's used in only one or two guns, is extra expensive, and is better than most other guns in that category in some way.

A list of calibers and such would be great. I have some books on guns; particularly a book about guns for authors, but I would prefer a first hand account, as it were.


As per expense, your "standard" gun, the one powered by an expansion of gas from the rapid combustion of some sort of chemical, will be somewhat expensive. Enough that spray and pray will be non-viable unless you've got a trust fund. Basically, as it goes, there are several categories of ranged weapons.

Clockwork: The cheapest. Fires fast and works great vs unarmored opponents but is worthless against objects and armor. Tends to use bladed discs, barbs or similar.

Standard: A weapon for the middle class. It's the sort of gun you're used to. Good balance.

Steam: Weapon of the upper class. Most of them are chargeable and get good armor penetration. Don't cause much bleeding (tend to cauterize wounds with red hot bullets) but they take big chunks out of ya.

Organic: Weapons of the fleshers. Rather unique in that they tend not to do that much straight damage but they are loaded with status effects like burning acid or poisons and they generate their own ammo over time. Provided you feed them.

Surface tech: Weapons from the age long past, scavenged from the ruins of the surface world by the junk dealers and shit-skiff captains of the lower levels and sold to the Elite. Massively powerful and dangerous but also extremely rare and expensive. You could build a whole ship for the price of one of these guns. Then again, maybe that pistol that fires homing microton missiles is worth it. If you can afford the ammo too.

[Thearpox]

a book about guns for authors

Ahem? Name?