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[Sarzael]

Hm.  I'd almost rather force you to make a choice and stick with it.  If I did allow respecs, they would be limited in some way.

And would you be able to use Teleportation Circles? Even if you cant teleport orb though them it would allow for some interesting traps, like activating it when enemies are getting nearby and teleporting them just a few kilometers of distance...

Either ways, if every team knows the powerful spells such as control pretty much everyone would go will, Will is the strongest stats in the game pretty much, if you dont have a nice quantity of will you get converted into a cube of flesh, the ploblem with will is that you need specific words for it to be useful, but once it is... Well, unless you add circles of Enchantment so that we can imbue ourselves with Dispel Magic circles which makes us resistant to will... And even then, while they cant directly make stuff like *explode your eyes* they can still make stuff like *Convert a building into a giant sword, then throw it at you*

I see. Maybe some base stats and flexible ones? Mostly so that we don't get someone with a +3 to speed that can outrun everybody and capture the flag again and again without even geting hit, and without giving the other team a way to counteract this.

What im thinking of word has unlimited range. Just make a blackhole spawn over his head, no matter where he is. If he has no strenght or will and blackhole control hes dead.

[Sean Mirrsen]

How about a game of "CTF Escalation"? Killing gives no stat points, stat-altering words are locked or replaced. However, the team that brings the flag home gives the opposing team members, each, an extra point, permanent, for every flag they've lost. So that with the first flag, the enemy gets 1 extra point, with the second they get 3 extra points total, up to a total of 10 extra points with the fourth flag, in a game to five captures. This keeps the game balanced and allows the losing team to catch up, unless the winning team just outskills or outsmarts them.

[Sarzael]

How about a game of "CTF Escalation"? Killing gives no stat points, stat-altering words are locked or replaced. However, the team that brings the flag home gives the opposing team members, each, an extra point, permanent, for every flag they've lost. So that with the first flag, the enemy gets 1 extra point, with the second they get 3 extra points total, up to a total of 10 extra points with the fourth flag, in a game to five captures. This keeps the game balanced and allows the losing team to catch up, unless the winning team just outskills or outsmarts them.

Now one of the teams must go half players to speed and half to will, then create a fusion circle and fuse whole team in a super person.
The other team will be: Oh sh** once armies of walking abominations and earthquakes destroy the base.

[Thearpox]

You know guys, a Capture The Flag game doesn't have to include a flag. It can be a battle for some objects in the middle, like a well of souls. You know, if you capture the well, you receive a soul every turn. Or maybe some magic device the teams would have to activate, with the trick being that since the magics are different, they would have to be in possession of it for some time or start over.

Or, the teams could have some objectives akin to destroying the other team's base, or say stealing something from there. (Yeah I know, it's basically the flag at that point, but less meta.) The thing is, if you have concrete teams, you could have them be less "random being thrown in together" and more "These people have a place in the world, and have some objectives to fulfill, and have some reasons for fighting the other team." As for that object getting accidentally destroyed, there could be some fallback objectives. Harder, but there.

And another thing you can do the moment you order people into teams, is passive defenses and NPC's. Although that might be a stretch. But the funny thing is that these "NPC's" could be controlled by other people in the forum who are not playing. And I don't think that the battle should be Heaven vs Hell. These forces seem like they would exist apart from that struggle.

As for the soul mechanic, it should definitely remain, although maybe get a little more complicated. There should definitely be ways of coming back from behind. With the system as it is now, a a few lucky rolls can turn the balance from roughly equivalent to vastly overpowering. Maybe only partially award these souls to the other team, distributing the rest between the team members? That, and maybe also have some other possibilities for catching up even with less souls. Or maybe make the overall souls get awarded not for killing other people, but for possession of static objects, with the souls lost when the person dies.

One thing I'm wary of the most, is the teams intelligence. How exactly do you plan to have that work out? Moving everything to PM's might work, even if making this boring. One interesting, but probably unrealistic thing would be to put each team in their own separate forum. And then it would be a Bay12 vs SomeOtherForum. The thing about this type of game, is that knowing what your opponents are doing is very important, and the more things are kept secret, the "better" the game flows.

Almost finally, regarding respawning. Since there's probably going to be more players wanting to play this then there are players, I think that there should be a waitlist. And when a person dies, he goes to the waitlist instead of respawning. As for the one turn delay, I'm not sure this is necessary. And maybe have more than two teams?

And this seems oddly relevant if you're making teams different:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Perplexicon concept could really allow for character specialization and classes. Especially with the right arena... What I mean by that, is that you could have normal word speakers; (like right now,) but also an Engraved class, which would have more raw power but have to prepare for engagements; the Otherplane class, which would focus on deals with otherwordly deities who would give them powers (Selling your soul several times to different entities may be a bad idea); the Sorcerers, who would be using their soul (or other's souls) directly, allowing them for much greater creativity and control, but burning their own soul in the process which would lead to their rapid decay and vampiric lifestyle; mayhaps the Thieves, who would be focuses on being hidden, and casting their spells with as little notice as possible, which would lead them to being less powerful but much more maneuverable.

That's what like, 5 classes? Man, in my head, it's awesome. Piecewise must be reading this and thinking "I have just spent weeks on this, now you want to me start over?" But wait, that's not all!

With that kind of variation, maybe this system is even enough to warrant it's own world. Now all that is left, is to in addition to giving them their own class book, give each person a dozen unique words, with at least a couple useful ones. Plus, give them several words from the other classes to use. Now, you have several unique classes and playstyles, with additionally, each player having several cards hidden in his sleeve. In addition, several pages of the book could be missing. In my head, it sounds awesome.


EDIT: My brain churns on. Regarding the balance issues:

Spellcasters: What we have right now. Probably the most balanced. With proper strategy, has no advantages of disadvantages versus any other class.
Engravers: Time makes the stronger. Heavily fortified, the strongest. Probably the general strategy is creep. Getting them out of their comfort zone or doing something they haven't prepared for is key. Scouting is very useful. Besides that, don't see the obvious advantages or disadvantages.
Otherplaners (better name?): A Wild Card. Depending on what they get, can be the most unpredictable. Should probably make some crafty ways of dealing with them for each class, so they don't get too overpowered.
Sorcerers: If you can outlast them, you can beat them. It's an endurance battle. If anyone has an advantage against them, it's probably Thieves for their ability to make legs. Could possibly have an advantage over Engravers, due to the generally static nature of their work.
Thieves: The important part of this class is to make them able to disappear even if things go wrong, so there should be some skills/spells ascribed to that. Obviously, not a guarantee success of doing that every fight. Cornered, extremely weak. Should probably also have trap spells.

(And now I just feel like I'm making a TF2-style game. Oh god. Not that I don't feel that it's conceptually very well balanced, except for the maybe Otherplaners. But anyway, with all this crap added on, it makes me wonder how much the Perplexicon system would really remain integral to the experience. I mean, the point continues to be that no matter the class, you have to experiment with words, and while theoretically given the tools, you do not necessarily pocess even the majority of them. Expect maybe the general sections would have to be labeled, but that's it. But it does make me wonder how good this would be if we get those classes, spells, and skills, but without the exploration of different words part. Because done well, it would probably still be... an innovative take on TF2-like multiplayer with spells instead of guns? I dunno.)

[Toaster]

CTF is just a generic term for "go in the enemy base and retrieve their MacGuffin and bring it back," so it doesn't have to be a literal flag.

But you are correct that there are other team-based option.  Team Deathmatch was actually the first one I considered, but CTF sounded more appealing.  It could be played one of two ways- either each team member has X number of lives, or one side wins when they get Y kills.

Other options are Capture and Hold (IE Control Point from TF2), with a series of points to hold on to.  Hold all of then for X turns to win.  It could be played requiring either ordered or unordered captures.  An obvious derivative is King of the Hill, though I'm not sure how well it'd work in a Perplexicon-like.  Maybe put some NPC nasty on the hill (which would likely be a literal hill) that tries to kill anything in the capture zone.

Assault could work as well.  Have one static team of four or so players starting with a smattering of word knowledge and basic equipment, inside a fortified zone.  The other team, which would be dynamic (IE filling from waitlist) and a bit larger (perhaps six instead of four) would be pushing in to destroy a central objective.  Hmmm... I like this one.

Speaking of waitlists, I'd (at least initially) favor short rounds.  More work to resort the book each time, but that's effort only on my part.

Bay12 versus Some Other Forum would be nice, except I really only hang here.  Someone else with ties elsewhere could GM it though (cough hint cough.)


As for team discussion, Quicktopic could be used, though I agree that stifling discussion a bit is an unfortunate side effect.

[TCM]

Yes. A person with pure strenght cant do a thing agaisnt someone with high will, not even being faster. Let me put it like that: A Person with 7 Will can control three creatures at a time, and 3 Channeling gives him the ability to do an item if he knows the word, which allows him to control everything. Even if that person is slow, you can control literally anything you can imagine, including minds. And for the ´´What im thinking of`` word there is not a limit range, a willmancer could be making heads explode from his base while protected by three powerful summons, no matter how far they are.

Strength/Speed based characters have the initial advantage over Will and even Channeling people in the early game. A hearty supply of words doesn't offer much help early on before the meanings are deciphered. Before they're with a proper arsenal, good wizards are usually quite squishy when it comes to physicality, which means any spell can be deflected with a good dropkick to the face.

[Thearpox]

CTF is just a generic term for "go in the enemy base and retrieve their MacGuffin and bring it back," so it doesn't have to be a literal flag.

Exactly! But for some reason people always understand and picture it as an actual, literal flag. Just check the last few pages of this thread to see proof of this. And there is no good reason why.

Speaking of waitlists, I'd (at least initially) favor short rounds.  More work to resort the book each time, but that's effort only on my part.

Not sure I understand what you mean here.

Assault could work as well.  Have one static team of four or so players starting with a smattering of word knowledge and basic equipment, inside a fortified zone.  The other team, which would be dynamic (IE filling from waitlist) and a bit larger (perhaps six instead of four) would be pushing in to destroy a central objective.  Hmmm... I like this one.

I personally find the assault more interesting than capture the McGuffin. Unless the win condition for the fortified team is a certain kill number.

As for team discussion, Quicktopic could be used, though I agree that stifling discussion a bit is an unfortunate side effect.

I feel like you're underestimating the issue. If we divide the entire Perplexicon into... "layers" of "stuff" we end up with several. First, are the actual words spoken. Then, there's the results of these words. Then, the strategy and alliances. And finally, the locations of players.

Some of these things should unquestionably be hidden to opposing team (words spoken). However, knowledge of any one of these layers confers a meta advantage to the opposing team. Even if you use Quicktopic for discussion, you still have the locations and the things happening on one team's side publicly known.

Yes. A person with pure strenght cant do a thing agaisnt someone with high will, not even being faster. Let me put it like that: A Person with 7 Will can control three creatures at a time, and 3 Channeling gives him the ability to do an item if he knows the word, which allows him to control everything. Even if that person is slow, you can control literally anything you can imagine, including minds. And for the ´´What im thinking of`` word there is not a limit range, a willmancer could be making heads explode from his base while protected by three powerful summons, no matter how far they are.

Strength/Speed based characters have the initial advantage over Will and even Channeling people in the early game. A hearty supply of words doesn't offer much help early on before the meanings are deciphered. Before they're with a proper arsenal, good wizards are usually quite squishy when it comes to physicality, which means any spell can be deflected with a good dropkick to the face.

That is correct. Do I take it you've decided to join the Debate Crew?

[Toaster]

Assault could work as well.  Have one static team of four or so players starting with a smattering of word knowledge and basic equipment, inside a fortified zone.  The other team, which would be dynamic (IE filling from waitlist) and a bit larger (perhaps six instead of four) would be pushing in to destroy a central objective.  Hmmm... I like this one.

I personally find the assault more interesting than capture the McGuffin. Unless the win condition for the fortified team is a certain kill number.

The only problem I have with it is what is a good wincon for the defending team?  I can only think of two ways- kill a certain number of attackers, or just keep a score of how many turns you last and see what team can do the best.

As for team discussion, Quicktopic could be used, though I agree that stifling discussion a bit is an unfortunate side effect.

I feel like you're underestimating the issue. If we divide the entire Perplexicon into... "layers" of "stuff" we end up with several. First, are the actual words spoken. Then, there's the results of these words. Then, the strategy and alliances. And finally, the locations of players.

Some of these things should unquestionably be hidden to opposing team (words spoken). However, knowledge of any one of these layers confers a meta advantage to the opposing team. Even if you use Quicktopic for discussion, you still have the locations and the things happening on one team's side publicly known.

I see what you're saying here.  The problem with hiding more is the more that is hidden, the less interesting the game is for spectators.

I'd probably just run a test game with an openness level comparable to this one and see how it goes.

[TCM]

Yes. A person with pure strenght cant do a thing agaisnt someone with high will, not even being faster. Let me put it like that: A Person with 7 Will can control three creatures at a time, and 3 Channeling gives him the ability to do an item if he knows the word, which allows him to control everything. Even if that person is slow, you can control literally anything you can imagine, including minds. And for the ´´What im thinking of`` word there is not a limit range, a willmancer could be making heads explode from his base while protected by three powerful summons, no matter how far they are.

Strength/Speed based characters have the initial advantage over Will and even Channeling people in the early game. A hearty supply of words doesn't offer much help early on before the meanings are deciphered. Before they're with a proper arsenal, good wizards are usually quite squishy when it comes to physicality, which means any spell can be deflected with a good dropkick to the face.

That is correct. Do I take it you've decided to join the Debate Crew?

Not really, but I'll do anything to defend the integrity of Physical Characters, who have been victimized enough in the world of magic arenas.

[Toaster]

Actually, having a physical tank backed up by a caster that can deck you would be quite powerful.  Someone with good physical stats and even a simple steel sword could wreak havok on a line of mages that couldn't get a spell out in time.

[Tomcost]

The art of being a good mage is preparation. The art of being a good face-puncher is anticipation.


About some concepts that were discussed:
-No NPCs. Players can make sentient beings on their own, there is no point in introducing beings controlled by the GM, as they will eventually be introduced. I'm against waitlister-control of NPCs also, as someone could just join the waitlist to give bad orders to the NPCs to favor one team.
-Team DeathMatch should have as winning condition the amount of kills earned.
-Assault's winning condition, as far as I know, has always been either to accomplish the objective for the attacking team, or by resisting enough time for the defenders. That way the teams can rotate afterwards. A kill-based winning condition may be based in luck (words backfiring during test stage causing many random deaths).
-Captre and Hold: Meh

[Thearpox]

Assault could work as well.  Have one static team of four or so players starting with a smattering of word knowledge and basic equipment, inside a fortified zone.  The other team, which would be dynamic (IE filling from waitlist) and a bit larger (perhaps six instead of four) would be pushing in to destroy a central objective.  Hmmm... I like this one.

I personally find the assault more interesting than capture the McGuffin. Unless the win condition for the fortified team is a certain kill number.

The only problem I have with it is what is a good wincon for the defending team?  I can only think of two ways- kill a certain number of attackers, or just keep a score of how many turns you last and see what team can do the best.

I just personally dislike having an endless stream of respawning attackers running forward, until at some arbitrary point the kill counter is reached, and the stage ends. Elimination, on the other hand, makes more sense. Or really, if the game actually encourages the attackers to push back and regroup from time to time, a large part of the problem is solved.

Maybe make the respawning gradually decrease as the time goes on? Instead of having an abrupt change from full to none, have the time it takes to respawn/number of active members in a team gradually change as the time goes on.

Or alternatively, give the defending team some tasks they need to accomplish. Except to make sure it doesn't kill the exploration of magic nature of the game.

I see what you're saying here.  The problem with hiding more is the more that is hidden, the less interesting the game is for spectators.

I'd probably just run a test game with an openness level comparable to this one and see how it goes.

And that is the the problem I was talking about, wasn't it.

Oh well, just make sure to have concrete rules for how it goes, we can't just have some people giving away secrets and some people asking for "advantages" as we have in here.

Actually, having a physical tank backed up by a caster that can deck you would be quite powerful.  Someone with good physical stats and even a simple steel sword could wreak havok on a line of mages that couldn't get a spell out in time.

Teamwork! An arcane-body physical character with a heavenly sword and a telepathic mind-control-protecting link to his caster friend, who will also be using shared vision to throw out some spells. What a symbiotic relationship.

The art of being a good mage is preparation. The art of being a good face-puncher is anticipation.


About some concepts that were discussed:
-No NPCs. Players can make sentient beings on their own, there is no point in introducing beings controlled by the GM, as they will eventually be introduced. I'm against waitlister-control of NPCs also, as someone could just join the waitlist to give bad orders to the NPCs to favor one team.
-Team DeathMatch should have as winning condition the amount of kills earned.
-Assault's winning condition, as far as I know, has always been either to accomplish the objective for the attacking team, or by resisting enough time for the defenders. That way the teams can rotate afterwards. A kill-based winning condition may be based in luck (words backfiring during test stage causing many random deaths).
-Captre and Hold: Meh

NPC's: It depends on how you implement them. And the idea was that they were not controlled by the waitlisters, but by secretly picked Toaster's friends. Honestly, even real life friends could work.
Deathmatch: No support?
Assault: Yeah, if this gets to an organised teams stage, luck will have to be nerfed. Eventually. And this goes not just for the Assault.
Catpre and Dloh: Hem.

[Sean Mirrsen]

There was a game at one point, called... I think it was Mobile Forces. It had a game-mode that was pretty unique to it at the time. Sort of a reverse CTF.

Somewhere on the map, a truck spawns. This truck has a trailer attached, with a giant bomb on it. Each team attempts to find the truck, and then drive it to the opponents' base, to blow it up. The bomb has a timer too.

The game made it fun by having some interesting vehicle dynamics, but maybe something similar could be fun in this form as well?

Also, what about King of the Hill? With a location (team-based) or an item (individual).

[Thearpox]

Somewhere on the map, a truck spawns. This truck has a trailer attached, with a giant bomb on it. Each team attempts to find the truck, and then drive it to the opponents' base, to blow it up. The bomb has a timer too.

That sounds really cool.

Also, what about King of the Hill?

Don't you think this is already resembling King of The Hill? One person has all the souls, everyone else is trying to get these souls themselves.

[Sarzael]

Yes. A person with pure strenght cant do a thing agaisnt someone with high will, not even being faster. Let me put it like that: A Person with 7 Will can control three creatures at a time, and 3 Channeling gives him the ability to do an item if he knows the word, which allows him to control everything. Even if that person is slow, you can control literally anything you can imagine, including minds. And for the ´´What im thinking of`` word there is not a limit range, a willmancer could be making heads explode from his base while protected by three powerful summons, no matter how far they are.

Strength/Speed based characters have the initial advantage over Will and even Channeling people in the early game. A hearty supply of words doesn't offer much help early on before the meanings are deciphered. Before they're with a proper arsenal, good wizards are usually quite squishy when it comes to physicality, which means any spell can be deflected with a good dropkick to the face.

That is correct. Do I take it you've decided to join the Debate Crew?

Not really, but I'll do anything to defend the integrity of Physical Characters, who have been victimized enough in the world of magic arenas.

You would have a point... If in the game Toaster is speaking about you didnt start with 75% of the words, including control. Really, a pure physical character haves no chance. Fine your fast and strong, but you would have same ploblem than you did here: How would you hurt for example someone made of Arcane Energy? How would you destroy though a circle of Repel Flesh before your brain explodes due to the will dude inside? How would you beat the hordes of creatures that would come?

Seriously, if there are fixed stats and you start with enough points, 1 will and 38 channeling is ALL you need to create this:
Giant Magic Eldritch Steel Strong Fast Agile Resistant Potency+ Will+ Dragon, Poison Teeth, Magic Draining Crystal Gas Breath, Arcane Energy Necromantic Life Drain Eye Beams, Solid Dark Magma Claws, Solid Acid Horns, Solid Darkness Absorb Strenght Wings.

Considering you start with Control and What im thinking of, a player could literally control anything on the whole map he can think about, and if lucky, he will only need one turn per kill. Or less. A will mage can easily kill a bunch of people in a turn causing earthquakes, or mind controlling one into casting a living hell over them.