Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4

Author Topic: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.  (Read 8659 times)

Scoops Novel

  • Bay Watcher
  • Talismanic
    • View Profile
Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« on: July 11, 2013, 12:10:40 pm »

I've noticed that the suggestion board have once again filled up with threads on these lines, and as people seem to be eager, i decided to revive the topic. The last one was locked after people got petty. I do not wish a repeat, and i am more then prepared to lock the thread first. Here is the original post of that thread. Keep it clean, civil and lively.

Toady stated in the latest Future of the Fortress reply that:

Quote from: LordBaal

    I always wondered if you ever thought of implementing a "research system", where some things became available as certain dates or entities invent/discover/develop them?


I don't think anything will happen with certain dates.  I don't have a specific objection to people discovering things, but it requires some kind of starting point, which I haven't really thought about.

We also know that he wants it to stay at 1450ish, though I'd like a clearer definition (no gunpowder or steampunk are definitive, however). Hence, i say we work through what the logical routes of progression are and were, specifically in worlds such as this. Discounting Magic for now, the races here have a distinct advantage, specifically that of having multiple races. What benefits could applying the strength of trolls have? Of Giants? Then we have our immortal races, who might be inclined to a little innovation, alongside impossibly honed skills, the possibility of aerial warfare, giant fauna (why not domesticate it?) a unique metal, and more potential ingredients/components then you can shake a stick at, though admittedly herbs still need to be worked in, as well as countless other things i haven't mentioned here.

If we're going to keep it at 1450ish tech, on this world, what would you have by 1450? More importantly, what would you have if you weren't human? I do suggest we pump a bit of research into what humans were planning though.

Edit: on the basis of discussion on the subject appearing in this thread and the suggestion of suchlike, i have created two threads in general discussion. One is a collection of sourced facts on DF races (sourcing which i expect to appear in further discource on this thread), and the other being on the psychology/nature vs nurture aspect.

Link to collection of information on races thread. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122647.0

Link to psychology/nature vs nurture thread. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=2.0
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 12:12:35 pm by Novel Scoops »
Logged
Reading a thinner book

Arcjolt (useful) Chilly The Endoplasm Jiggles

Hums with potential    a flying minotaur

Sirbug

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 12:21:08 pm »

Are you suggesting to tie available options to age of the world? That would force people to generate older world, despite possible hardware limitations (Not enough memory to process large histories), wetware limitations (Not wanting to wait until 1050 years pass) etc.
Logged
Cool, but wouldn't this likely lead to tongues having a '[SPEACH]' tag, and thus via necromancy we would have nearly unkillable reanimated tongues following necromancers spamming 'it is sad but not unexpected'?

Scoops Novel

  • Bay Watcher
  • Talismanic
    • View Profile
Re: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2013, 12:43:15 pm »

I'm suggesting that we start with the current level of technology (though there could be other options) and advance within that framework. I'm also suggesting we do more with the unique advantages available to the worlds of Dwarf Fortress, rather then borrowing exclusively from human history.
Logged
Reading a thinner book

Arcjolt (useful) Chilly The Endoplasm Jiggles

Hums with potential    a flying minotaur

Boea

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2013, 04:28:26 pm »

I'm suggesting that we start with the current level of technology (though there could be other options) and advance within that framework. I'm also suggesting we do more with the unique advantages available to the worlds of Dwarf Fortress, rather then borrowing exclusively from human history.
I'm listening.
Logged

Scoops Novel

  • Bay Watcher
  • Talismanic
    • View Profile
Re: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2013, 04:45:22 pm »

Here's a start, though i expect none of the grievances in this thread to come here. It's why i held off linking it. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122443.msg3998351#msg3998351
Logged
Reading a thinner book

Arcjolt (useful) Chilly The Endoplasm Jiggles

Hums with potential    a flying minotaur

Brandon816

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2013, 12:19:58 am »

It seems like a lot of the later arguments in that previous thread you linked were in regards to the spread of technology, so I would like to offer a partial solution to that in order to possibly avoid such arguments, focusing on how a single fortress would come across that technology and possibly lose it. Keep in mind, it ignores how having technology would affect your fortress / civilization (e.g. being targeted down for attacks), the reason for doing so (maybe you would have to command it, like how you create work orders and designate buildings?), and any external barriers to or catalysts for a specific method of technological acquirement or a specific technology branch (e.g. hostile dominant culture, personal or racial ethics, invaders, language, physical or mental limitations of being or race, royal decree, etc).

Advance TL;DR: The way I see it, there are 3 ways to gain access to technology, if you were to base it on an actual tech-tree: basic / applied research, books / relics, and apprenticeship. They basically vary on an abstract level by balancing what you have to start with, versus the amount of time and resources required to gain the knowledge, as well as the risk / severity of danger in experimenting with the unknown. The way to lose technology is by a loss of citizens that know about it and objects that could teach it, leaving you with the more difficult method until you can regain the pre-requisites for the other methods.

WARNING: INCOMING +WALL OF TEXT+

One way to pick up technology is through basic or applied research, where a sentient creature is actively combining different things in different ways and doing different things to them, usually wasting those resources in the process, but occasionally figuring out something. This could be as simple as dropping rocks and metals into lava in order to see which are magma-proof and which aren't (for those who would rather figure things out for their selves rather than looking online), or as complicated as trying out different patterns or creation methods for armor. Knowledge imparted would be giving directly to the researcher, and it would be up to that researcher to either write down notes, put together a full book on the subject, or teach it to someone else through use in order to actually "spread" the technology (unless you like your researchers to be supreme beings of all knowledge, surrounded by hoards of item haulers and farmers).
-The limitations of this method are the raw resources and time you have to work with, the current level of technology available to your researcher, and the ingenuity of the researcher. You also cannot learn the base technology of any type of "magic" this way, since your research is limited to the physical realm until you break that initial barrier. I would suppose that research into "magic" fields would also have its own set of negative consequences as well (a pyromancer accidentally self-combusting? maybe a conjurer creating a portal to the circus?).
-The benefits are that it can be done with no outside help. It also provides an automatic boost to the skill level of the researcher once the technology is researched, if it's one based on applied science and associated with a skill (e.g. finding a more time- and fuel-efficient smeltery through theory and focused experimentation would provide a small boost to architecture and smeltery skills of that researcher), in addition to unlocking that technology.

A second way is to learn something from a book or relic. I guess that books could be written by anyone with the knowledge and literacy, but relics would have to be imbued with some way to impart magic to the user. As for using them, each would require a specific tech-tree requirement (can't research carpentry without something sharp), with optional technological advances helping (for instance, yes, a massive porcelain kiln would require armies of woodcutters for fuel, unless you had access to a seasoned pyromancer who could provide sustained heat).
Also, as was mentioned before in the other thread, just using the book or relic won't magically impart the knowledge (unless mental abnormalities get added in and you happen to have a savant doing the learning). For normal beings, just understanding that knowledge of the object would be a skill in itself, based on the quality and technical level of the writing in the book. A technical book would take longer to read, but lend a greater chance of understanding, whereas an overview would be a quick read but not give much of a chance of knowledge in return for the effort. As for relics, the level of technicality of writing could be replaced by specificity, targeting a more specific group of creatures (based on random number created with each being during that being's creation) in exchange for a higher chance of success and lower chance of a "mishap", and vice versa.
After finally picking up enough knowledge for the skill, item, ability, or building, AND attempting it enough times, the unit may finally begin to create the items, use the abilities, make the buildings, or be a dabbling [skill] user. If this is not done in time, the knowledge might be lost do to skill-rust and have to be re-learned.
-The limitations here are the actual objects you have to find/buy/collect, in order to build up that library. These things can also be stolen or destroyed. It's also unsafe, especially with relics, and can have disastrous consequences. Also, the creator of the object could also be sabotaging the knowledge as well (like Leonardo with many of his war machines -link-), or by outright trapping it and spreading these to the enemy (e.g. books depicting reactions as harmless that would actually kill / maim the user, relics allowing possession of the user or cursing them).
-The benefits are that these consequences come with less of a chance and less severity than researching. There is also a decrease in time and resources required over researching.

The final way is to pick it up from observation, like watching someone else do it. Think of this as like an apprenticeship. With the current military training structure in place, this shouldn't be too difficult to add.
-The limitations here are the teaching ability of the master, the pre-requisite knowledge already having been learned and mastered by that master, and the time of the master spent in teaching the student.

-A final limitation for all three of these methods is the learning ability of the researcher or student. I didn't bother putting it down with any, since it affects all more or less equally.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 01:09:24 am by Brandon816 »
Logged

Boea

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 03:10:52 pm »

I simply like the thought of eventually replacing normal wheelbarrows with Chinese wheelbarrows, it seems nifty.
Logged

assasin

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2013, 05:36:41 pm »

I've suggested before that having other civs have different tech levels would be an interesting way to change the difficulty [whether or not they tunnel or use siege engines in sieges, availability of certain tradetrade goods, etc.]. I think it might be irritating if your starting civ is of a low tech level, but currently since theres no range limit on how far from your civ you can embark [though logically there should be, so I'll admit this argument isn't very good] you can just choose a high tech civ and still embark where you want.

In the actual fort I don't know. Since it is the mediaval period as far as I'm aware there'd be little dedicated research and most of it would be carried out by master craftsmen. So maybe a variation on strange moods could be used. But an RNG could get annoying with tech.

What there could be, similar to animals, is your civs familiarity with certain materials, similar to animals. Take the Japanese as an example. Their ore quality, as far as I am aware, is crap. But the Japanese swordmakers compensated by making works of art. They might have low ore quality but their familiarity in techniques used to work he steel created very high quality blades. In the fort if you use a certain material a lot there'd be a few minor bonuses that start to stack up
Logged

Grey_Wolf

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2013, 05:56:59 pm »

PTW; Also,

I thoroughly believe that introducing more advanced technology into the worlds of Dwarf Fortress may have a detrimental effect on the nature of gameplay, while similarly altering the socio/political-scape of the game world and it's civilizations. Take a few quick moments to think it over, You'd have squads of arquebus dwarves, which would diminish the sense of heroism in combat, and be fairly easily mass-draftable, with combat just becoming huge blobs, a numbers and attrition game ((Bye bye single armed dorfs fighting off goblins with a sword)) while, again, altering the nature of society by bringing it forward into the Renaissance. No longer would You have master swordsdwarves, honed by years in danger rooms of combat. They'd be replaced by a drafted farmer with a matchlock.

Eh...it's 8 in the morning and my hands are freezing, perhaps I'll revisit this post, in any case.

tl;dr: Technological Advancement makes for boring gameplay. Also, it'll kill chivalry. THINK OF THE CHIVALRY.
Logged
Quote
Those sea serpents you sold me, they won't mate. They just swim around, eating, and not mating. You sold me... queer sea serpents. I want my money back.

Urist McFreud, Chief Psychotherapist Dwarf, has much to say regarding this statement.

Scoops Novel

  • Bay Watcher
  • Talismanic
    • View Profile
Re: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2013, 06:05:27 pm »

Remember that this working within the technological limitations of the time (and coming at them, or their basic features, from an entirely different angle).
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 06:08:00 pm by Novel Scoops »
Logged
Reading a thinner book

Arcjolt (useful) Chilly The Endoplasm Jiggles

Hums with potential    a flying minotaur

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2013, 06:33:14 pm »

If we're going to keep it at 1450ish tech, on this world, what would you have by 1450? More importantly, what would you have if you weren't human? I do suggest we pump a bit of research into what humans were planning though.

This question is nonrelevant, as
1. The deadline is only a guideline
2. The range of things that can happen is massive.
      ---> Massive, destructive wars, magic taking place of technology, things hiding in the depths => Limited to Stone age technology
      ---> Immortality, advanced resource extraction, mindless workforce (Necromancers + Victorian values = Fully automated factory) => full blown futuristic society.

I mean, just look at what happened IRL. Korea had rocket technology, Greeks invented steam power (No pistons though), Maya's and Other ancient nations were awesome astronomers. Technology is by no means linear, and influenced more by place than by time.
Logged

Gargomaxthalus

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2013, 08:33:17 pm »

    I didn't think I'd end up posting here so soon but the talk of the non linear nature "progress" brings up some interesting points. The game currently starts at 0 years and defaults to going a bit over 1000. As things stand, there is no advancement other than the rise and fall of civilizations during this entire period. We essentially have a situation that Bible junkies must love, all knowledge is created and distributed at the dawn of time and no one builds off of it. Technologically and culturally, the worlds we set generation parameters for are all stagnant with only the populations changing. The "Legends" simply consist of  a metric shit-ton of worthless flavor text that simply makes population fluctuation data, a bit more interesting. As things stand "progress" is simply a measure of how large a population can become and how many other populations they can wipe out.

     Look at it this way. 4X isn't simply a computer game genre, it's how things really work on a simplified level. Explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate, this is all that happens in DF right now. People look for people while expanding their territory, exploit their territory, their people, and their neighbors and eventually decide to exterminate those neighbors. Now there can be some very thin diplomacy, but there's no arms race, no civic works, infrastructure is really just there to make the map look nice. In order to do what DF is intended to do and to do it as it is currently presented, the races need tech trees. Now don't go getting all up in arms about rigidity and what not, there are games like SotS where there is some extra randomization. In that particular case, you don't get access to all of the techs and you don't know which ones your going to have access to, which is further complicated in the admittedly flawed sequel. We need to have our civs start primitive and evolve with as much randomness as we can get without dangerous emergent AI.

     You can't start talking about where technology should lead until you properly work out it's beginnings. There is a linear progression of a sort with technology. It starts with needs. A need to even the odds against better designed creatures is how we got our start. No claws? Fine make a knife. No thick fur coat? No problem, take one by force using the knife. Ok, Uhngar is dead any one got a plan B? Attach knife to stick, throw spear, collect loot, yay!!!! Now we come to observation, some one had to realize that that Giant Sloth fared better in the cold than they did. This of course means that they also formed a clear connection between the fur and surviving in the cold.
To put it in a better way it works like this:

1. Realize that you have a problem.
2.Fix problem by inventing a tool.
3.Realize that the new tool can help solve more than one problem.
4.Your tool fails you, make more and better tools.

     Each time you solve a problem you realize that you have more. You look around. You realize that some people don't share your problems. You watch, listen, learn and mimic as best you can. I'll throw my usual apology in at this point, this isn't going so well I'd like and I apologize for the acute cerebral hemorrhaging that has likely begun. I know my head hurts. Ok ,ok ,ok, oh screw it I'm done for now. After someone translates this mess they can pick up where I left off. People don't seem to realize just how important this topic really is. Anyone with the right knowledge can make a game where you start in the middle and grow a bit from there. In order to be truly unique, DF has to start from a very real and complete 0 and then grow into who knows what. 

     
Logged
Well lets see... at least half of what I say is complete bullshit. Hell the other half tends to be pretty sketchy...

OOOOHHHH,JUST SHUT UP AND LISTEN TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY AND MAYBE I'LL GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

javascript:void(0)
javascript:void(0)

assasin

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2013, 04:13:29 pm »

Quote
   You can't start talking about where technology should lead until you properly work out it's beginnings. There is  a linear progression of a sort with technology. It starts with needs. A need to even the odds against better designed creatures is how we got our start. No claws? Fine make a knife. No thick fur coat? No problem, take one by force using the knife. Ok, Uhngar is dead any one got a plan B? Attach knife to stick, throw spear, collect loot, yay!!!! Now we come to observation, some one had to realize that that Giant Sloth fared better in the cold than they did. This of course means that they also formed a clear connection between the fur and surviving in the cold.
To put it in a better way it works like this

Personally I don't see a problem with simplifying it. A civ with level one mining tech can't dig down, level two can only dig one z level through soil, level three can only dig soil, etc [though it'd probably be culturally important to default dwarves at a minimum of five or whatever other random number, though other races would have their own specialties, and possibly events might cause races to get lower than their defaults, like elves being forced to hide underground or something]. Level one metalworking might only be working with copper. I'm not sure what the next stage would be. I believe that historically that bronze is slightly better than plain iron, but iron was more common which was why it was adopted, until they worked out steel at least. I may be wrong though. Steel would probably at the current tech now with candy being the most advanced level.


If you want a start point at the start of history gen you'd just have the races start at their miminum defaults and then have events determine the spread of tech. It shouldn't take long for a civ to get to get to the current level and in a standard worlgen without fiddling with advanced features their should always be at least one dwarf civ at a standard tech level (if possible) and the average tech level of the world should probably be part of basic world gen. Though maybe there should be separate options for "good" (dwarves, elves and humans) civs and "evil" (goblins) civs to make fiddling with difficulty easier for players who don't use advanced world gen.
Logged

Dwarf Kitty

  • Bay Watcher
  • Seeking owner to adopt
    • View Profile
Re: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2013, 02:10:03 am »

It sounds as though some here are envisioning something like the Age of Empires tech tree.  In that game series, you could generate PvC maps, and the computer AI would race to advance its tech.  A civ would need to advance in tech and build new buildings in order to advance to the next "age."  New ages unlock new techs.  The fourth age always unlocked megaprojects monuments.
 
Each civ had its own little buffs and tweaks.  Build the Age 3 fortress and you can train a special unit unique to the civ.  Certain units had buffs or nerfs.  Civs also had slightly different configurations of the available techs.
 
I think an Age of Empires tech tree and AI progression can't happen until a more persistent world is put in.  How else to trigger goblin tech research without milestones of population and resource accumulation?
 
 
Closer to home, take a look at the Masterwork DF board and check out the non-dwarf modes.  Meph and team are creating playable versions of some of the other civs.  Currently, Kobold Camp and Orc Fort are live, with others in the works.  They are implementing various challenges and benefits for the civs.
 
For instance, kobolds cannot mine at all.  A world genned when they are the playable race has undiggable stone.
 
Meph has also included a sort of research feature in an Architect's Study.  An architect is needed to design blueprints for some of his advanced buildings.  The blueprints then become a block-like building material necessary for the building.  Of course, he also includes a dwarfy level of mistakes.   ;)
 
 
Some combination of the above might be what you are looking for.  Start with civs at various default levels, then allow them to advance based on resources and population.  Dwarves (and any other race that is being played) need some research-type buildings to advance certain techs beyond the basics.
 
Oh, wait.  I just remembered.  Age of Empires never had civs trading actual created items among themselves.  How do you handle imbalances of technology when an advanced civ can trade a superior steel blade to a civ just starting to learn to make their own copper blades?  Or can claim the blades and armor off fallen enemies?
Logged
Menaces with swipes of claw.
Meows with rumbles of purr.

A cute fluffy little creature fond of idle games, DF, and writing.

Sergarr

  • Bay Watcher
  • (9) airheaded baka (9)
    • View Profile
Re: Medieval Stasis. Please keep it civil.
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2013, 02:49:42 am »

PvC maps

Excuse me, but what does that abbreviation mean?
Logged
._.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4