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[Lenglon]

"I... I mean, I'm not totally sure or anything. but...
well, she can't be in two places at once, right?
well, if she spent all that time with Horatio last night, and yet was asleep when you reached her, and still you and I had enough time afterwards to get some sleep, then she'd have to have been in two places at once to do anything... mean, to Jim last night.
although I still don't understand how Jim died. It... it seemed kinda odd, you know?

and then even after that, did you notice how she has acted today? the way she has been carefully questioning us? It seems to me that she is trying her hardest to investigate with the tools she has available. and I'd say she's doing a pretty fine job of it too."

Lenglon:  What makes you say Tiruin is verified?

her alibi is weaker than the rest, but spending time with Horatio having a long discusion and still being asleep when you reached her, combined with the agressive reaction she had to the taste of dirt (gravedirt?) makes it seem unlikely to me that she is our final foe.

[Lenglon]

"Oh yeah, um, she also is verified by one other thing. the only person that died last night was Jim, right? so...
what happened to Jim's ability to kill, if it wasn't used attempting to kill Tiruin? I mean, nobody else has a defense, and I can sorta understand why Jim would think it would work. I mean, Jim's lethal skill was mentioned to be unblockable. so depending on how Tiruin's defense works, it seems like it might have worked regardless, right? I think Jim tried to kill Tiruin, leaving a taste of gravedirt in her mouth, and that Tiruin managed to hold Jim off somehow."
Also, Tiruin has now demonstrated her claimed ability. if Jim didn't try to kill Tiruin last night, where else did Jim's kill go?

[Vector]

Initial extension to 7:00 PM Monday, October 9th (-8GMT) granted.  Two votes required for further extension to 7:00 PM Wednesday, October 11th (-8GMT).

Soft hammers have been lifted for today.  There's no way to compute them gracefully without confirming or denying someone's role, and we're at 4P anyway.

[Toaster]

Good point, but you're assuming that she can't be both NK immune and scum.

[Tiruin]

Extend as well.

Tiruin:

What is it going to take to convince you?

Logic dictates that either you or LS did it.
However I'm preeeeetty sure now after collapsing asleep that Jim did it.

What makes you say Lenglon is telling the truth?

Also, the laundry basket was in the kitchen.  It was full of clean towels (and you).  I didn't notice anything unusual about you- no feathers or bill or anything.

...Your compliment is well received.

Also, I doubt both of you--her, less. But the fact remains that I tasted dirt. And you're both flower-girls. :I While I could attribute the dirt-touch to Lenglon given how she said before, a note on soil..I'm currently (yeah the extend-sorry Vector ) under RL stuff to check >_>

And she's confirming you. She followed people. That thing back on Soli in the day? Did you see how unerring that thing was [sans bad stuff]? If it was a mislynch-deal, then she'd be relying on her allies to deal with it given how Soli was still alive.

They had Web-the roleblocker. All deaths after then were generally, without weaponry..ok, maybe NQT, but I'm attributing his death to being caused by the same deal. (Also Sage is an herb. Just saying. O_o)

See yonder logic?

But maybe you'd still suspect her more. I know I did then, until...

Until I examined the wounds. Check it.

So that's why I said it's either you or him, because something's still up with the two of you, and Jim. All kills happen at the same time, I guess via the link in the OP.

Also, the laundry basket was in the kitchen.

...So that's how far he brought me, huh.


[was about to post. Noticed that Lenglon had posted. Noticed everything else >_< Ok I'm overworked]

Leafsnail:I follow people around, nothing sexual about it, no explanation for why I track people, I love the prince for his beauty and purity.

So what you're saying is that you are the only player whose role has absolutely no link to their flavour?

yes, I am.

Err, mine does too, because my self-esteem and all this crazy things called life, y'know?

Also how is it absolutely not linking, Leafsnail?

"I...I'd still like to hear what Horatio told you though."

Well, he saw me first. I saw him. We smiled, and he greeted me like a cousin.

However, he..then asked me one thing. One thing which I cannot exactly say, for it goes against my oath of honesty.

What I can say, is that scum will never win his hand. The Prince himself knows of this-he is young, yet he is wise in a peculiar way. He is learning, by everyone around him.

And Horatio knows it. That only one of pure heart and clear mind would give the Prince solace-to guide and aid him at this time.

Oh, and we met, by the weed-field. The area, of the rose. We basked in the moonlight, and then I felt sleepy.

[All the PPEs. Nice work Toaster on being scummier. What did you exactly notice-without the assumptions? I can tell that we can't truly recognize each other until..well, something's still going on here.

What is the color of my hair?]


Leafsnail: Eagerly awaiting your notes. Could you explain how you got them?

"Oh yeah, um, she also is verified by one other thing. the only person that died last night was Jim, right? so...
what happened to Jim's ability to kill, if it wasn't used attempting to kill Tiruin? I mean, nobody else has a defense, and I can sorta understand why Jim would think it would work. I mean, Jim's lethal skill was mentioned to be unblockable. so depending on how Tiruin's defense works, it seems like it might have worked regardless, right? I think Jim tried to kill Tiruin, leaving a taste of gravedirt in her mouth, and that Tiruin managed to hold Jim off somehow."
Also, Tiruin has now demonstrated her claimed ability. if Jim didn't try to kill Tiruin last night, where else did Jim's kill go?

...y'know, that makes sense. The dirt. >_>

My metaphor still stands!

Good point, but you're assuming that she can't be both NK immune and scum.

Yeah? And what do you assume, for one of pale touch and rosy-cheek?

[Toaster]

Tiruin:  Here's what I meant about Lenglon:  While I fully believe she has a track ability, she may not have used it and gone by the assumption that I was doing what I said I'd do in claiming I went to you.  It's noteworthy that she didn't actually say what I did until I claimed.

However, I don't think it's her.  At this point Leafsnail's my best bet.  I'm waiting to hear his theory.


In any case, my PM was fairly flavor light in regards to my night action.  Five sentences, summed thusly:

You're hard to find.

You're asleep in a laundry basket.  I don't want to wake you, so I put the rose in your hand.  You grab it and hold hard, even asleep.

I go back to bed.


The rest of this PM is the dream.  The rest of the flavor info comes from PM clarification, and I'll have to ask on the hair color.

What makes you think I ended up at someone else?  It shouldn't be that hard to tell between the few people that are left.

[Leafsnail]

The puzzle:

I would like to draw your attention to three pairs of players.

webadict I and Ottofar (the white swan, the black swan)
Me and webadict (black shoes, red shoes)
Lenglon and Toaster (lily, rose)

Substitute in the common colours of lilies and roses and you notice something: there are three pairs, each containing two of the colours red, white and black.

Black, white and red are known to some as the three "universally recognized" colours. That is to say, every culture perceives those three as distinct.  They also have similar meanings across all cultures:

Black is primarily associated with death and aging.
Red is primarily associated with sexuality and availability.
White is primarily associated with purity and youth.

This is where the theme of love comes in.  Each role in the pairs represents one of these three colours:
webadict I attracted men using her daintiness and purity, always feigning innocence - white.
Ottofar perpetually remembered the death of her lover, and wears clothes to symbolize that to other suitors - black.
I was cursed to walk like an aged, marriageable woman - black.
webadict II was cursed to perpetually dance, and make herself an object of desire where she did not want to be - red.
Toaster gives out flowers in order to help other ladies get laid - red.
Lenglon is clearly lieing due to the lack of detail in her claim, but she acknowledged her flavour involves purity.  I suspect that she actually thinks that offering ourselves to the prince like this is highly unseemly for people who should be pure maidens.

So in other words, each pair has two of the colours in opposition to each other.  And not they are not only opposed in colour and flavour, but also in alignments.  Because, in the same way that one member of the swan pair and one member of the shoes pair was scum, one member of the flowers pair is scum.

Why is it Lenglon and not Toaster?  Because there is one mafia member of each colour.  Three different colours, three opposed forces saw their interests align and formed a group to get what they wanted.  Synthesis.

This theory is a bit changed from how it was previously (I was originally trying to sort every character in the game into colours), but I believe it is the solution to the "who is mafia" problem.  I think there are further puzzles to determine who is a third party member, but that isn't important right now (incidentally I think Tiruin is possibly third party - that would mean there would be a white (Griffionday), a red (Tiruin) and a black (NQT) third party, as well as a wildcard in Jim Groovester who fits into all three colours).

I'll post some more about why Lenglon is scum later.

[Toaster]

You'll pardon me if I call that a stretch.  Let's go ahead and write off your third party color people and Jim as all three.  Then what color are ZU, Solifuge, and TWS?

[Leafsnail]

Incidentally, I think webadict's actions yesterday make more sense if you think of it being a bus.  The claim he made completely doomed himself and it would be strange for webadict to make a mistake like that.  However, it wouldn't be so strange for him to try and give his partner a false alibi while also putting them above suspicion.

Leaf probably killed Jim either way, due to being the only person without verification last night, but if leaf was town-aligned (vig), she'd probably claim it.

Leafsnail: why wont you claim your kill? everyone else is accounted for.

The only person with an alibi for last night is Toaster.  Why are you trusting Tiruin's word without question?  Or pretending your owm whereabouts are remotely verified for that matter.

So what you're saying is that you are the only player whose role has absolutely no link to their flavour?

yes, I am.

Is that not odd?  Every other player has some kind of explanation for their ability, and this is meant to be a flavour heavy game.  Why do you have nothing, not even a throwaway line?  It's because your actual flavour relates to the reason you joined the Black Swan, isn't it?

I also find it odd that your red counterpart has a clear motive, while you apparently have none.

vote Toaster then.

That wouldn't do anything useful.  I guess I can though.  Toaster.

"I... I mean, I'm not totally sure or anything. but...
well, she can't be in two places at once, right?
well, if she spent all that time with Horatio last night, and yet was asleep when you reached her, and still you and I had enough time afterwards to get some sleep, then she'd have to have been in two places at once to do anything... mean, to Jim last night.
although I still don't understand how Jim died. It... it seemed kinda odd, you know?

and then even after that, did you notice how she has acted today? the way she has been carefully questioning us? It seems to me that she is trying her hardest to investigate with the tools she has available. and I'd say she's doing a pretty fine job of it too."

"Oh yeah, um, she also is verified by one other thing. the only person that died last night was Jim, right? so...
what happened to Jim's ability to kill, if it wasn't used attempting to kill Tiruin? I mean, nobody else has a defense, and I can sorta understand why Jim would think it would work. I mean, Jim's lethal skill was mentioned to be unblockable. so depending on how Tiruin's defense works, it seems like it might have worked regardless, right? I think Jim tried to kill Tiruin, leaving a taste of gravedirt in her mouth, and that Tiruin managed to hold Jim off somehow."

You clearly made all this stuff up.  If you used all this reasoning to determine Tiruin wasn't scum, you would have stated it with your case on me rather than acting like it was self evident.

The real reason you marked Tiruin as town is that you forgot to think from a townie perspective.

Good point, but you're assuming that she can't be both NK immune and scum.

A really strange assumption considering that "NK-immune mafia member" is a really common role that appears in Paranormal.

I'll move onto Tiruin's questions in my next post.

[Leafsnail]

You'll pardon me if I call that a stretch.  Let's go ahead and write off your third party color people and Jim as all three.  Then what color are ZU, Solifuge, and TWS?

I moved away from the "everyone has a colour" theory after I realized it made more sense if all three mafia members were contained within the colour-pairs.  ZU and Solifuge form a secondary puzzle with Jim Groovester, and TWS links me and webadict II.  They're not a direct part of the colours puzzle.

Although if they were they'd probably be white, red, white/black (depending on TWS's age, her having an old mother may mean she is quite old too).

Actually..yeah. I'm prodding you on why you're being vague there. Garbled whatnow?

What I mean is that I previously hadn't thought of any explanation for the "brown duck" thing, and then thought of one.  Remember that Griffionday only heard it in rumours.  The rumour evolved from:
"Hey, did you hear Tiruin's friends with the Black Swan?"
via
"Hey, did you hear Tiruin's friends with... uh... I dunno, some kind of darkish bird... a brown duck?"
to arrive at
"Did you hear Tiruin's now a brown duck?  Darndest thing I ever heard."

It doesn't really fit the rest of the puzzle though.  I think it's more likely you're some kind of third party at this point.

So your vote counts as a vote, technically in the hammer terms, but it also counts as a minus vote to the person at hand.

That's the point I was making, yeah.  And it's still a vote even if it's a negative one, so I don't think Vector was wrong to make it 4 votes to hammer yesterday.

Err, mine does too, because my self-esteem and all this crazy things called life, y'know?

Also how is it absolutely not linking, Leafsnail?

What I mean is that every other player in the game seems to have some kind of flavour reason for having the ability that they do.

webadict I had a rival she wanted to get rid of, so she had a one-shot kill.
Griffionday was trying to find his lover, so he had an action to try and identify her.
Ottofar looked similar to an innocent player, so inspections on her returned innocent.
Solifuge was some kind of defensive assassin, so she got to kill.
notquitethere's abilities were strange, but they were named in a way that clearly linked to his role.
zombie urist was there to protect the goddess, so she could protect people.
griffinpup was a musician so his abilities were songs, and as everyone heard the music everyone was affected by the actions.
webadict II distracted people with her dancing or feet.
Jim Groovestar got information and other effects from her dreams.
Tiruin claims to be able to fight off attackers due to being generally feisty and experienced.
Toaster claims to give roses to people to make them more desirable (which fits with the theme of roses).
I am claiming that the massive boost to my self-esteem from being able to walk normally increased my charisma and vote to two, and then the loss of it caused me to become moody and difficult to agree with, pushing me down to -1 vote.

Lenglon is claiming that she is a lily.  And that she can follow people.  Because, you know, lilies are famous for following people around.  Also she thinks the Prince is pure, or something.

Can you see why I'm saying Lenglon's role has no thematic coherence if compared to every other claimed and revealed role in the game?  My contention is that Lenglon's flavour outs her as a mafia member, which is why it seems so sparse.

[Leafsnail]

Also consider that Lenglon's opposite role, Toaster, claimed to have entertaining flavour.  It would be odd for Vector to make one role in a pair have funny flavour that links to its role and the other one to have basically nothing.

[Leafsnail]

Actually, I forgot to answer how Tiruin's question of why I only just realized this.

The reason is that I didn't really notice the colour symbolism until I read about webadict's white shoes being stained red with blood.

[Tiruin]

PFP
I had thought about colors far back in the game, but did not..know it meant colors in that form.

That's..darn, I was only looking at the superficial layer. No I'm not a third-party.

Tiruin claims to be able to fight off attackers due to being generally feisty and experienced.

*cough* "It's in the essence of fighting wherein one learns that preservation and safety are the core virtues, and never to end another's life. Also, I'm...not really feisty. Just a simple person."


...Something's definitely not right. Either in the argument words, or something else. I really wish I could understand my intuition. Will reply later after reviewing everything. (That means full reply ~13 hours from now).

I was cursed to walk like an aged, marriageable woman - black.
webadict II was cursed to perpetually dance, and make herself an object of desire where she did not want to be - red.
Toaster gives out flowers in order to help other ladies get laid - red.
Lenglon is clearly lieing due to the lack of detail in her claim, but she acknowledged her flavour involves purity.  I suspect that she actually thinks that offering ourselves to the prince like this is highly unseemly for people who should be pure maidens.

Strange. As opposed to me, what is the difference between Lenglon & Toaster there?

Also, web's initial color was white. The red stains must be something from recent note.

Vector: What type of shoes did okami-no-rei wear?

The only person with an alibi for last night is Toaster.  Why are you trusting Tiruin's word without question?  Or pretending your owm whereabouts are remotely verified for that matter.

Why is Toaster the only one with an alibi? Anything that gives us, not having an alibi?

Initial extension to 7:00 PM Monday, October 9th (-8GMT) granted.  Two votes required for further extension to 7:00 PM Wednesday, October 11th (-8GMT).

Soft hammers have been lifted for today.  There's no way to compute them gracefully without confirming or denying someone's role, and we're at 4P anyway.

So we can vote to our heart's content, and the day will end on either a shorten massvote, or timer?

Please extend this out, everyone.

[Tiruin]

Actually, I forgot to answer how Tiruin's question of why I only just realized this.

The reason is that I didn't really notice the colour symbolism until I read about webadict's white shoes being stained red with blood.

So how did this bring about that revelation on the intrinsic color properties there? It's...very sensible that I'm hitting myself for not noticing it earlier despite my thoughts hanging on that note for 3 darn days.

On that note: What's your take on the whole 'elegant/rough' way to solve said puzzle?

Lastly for now: Comparing Lenglon to how she performed in D2 (pre-Soli), could you detail how--because the theory is still fallible in the way that it stands in linking notes and interpretation there--she is the last scum via the other method? The realistic method?

Why am I not scum? Toaster. Leafsnail. I've been wondering why people have been seemingly reluctant to poke on my role or query it since the past days-and only now does a pertinent accusation of...anything (third-party?) come out.

[Leafsnail]

Strange. As opposed to me, what is the difference between Lenglon & Toaster there?

The difference that makes Lenglon scum is that he's white, the colour which no mafia member has been yet.  Or if you're talking about flavour claiming, your role and ability line up in a way that Lenglon's do not.

Also, web's initial color was white. The red stains must be something from recent note.

Vector: What type of shoes did okami-no-rei wear?

There is maybe something in this, but note web's role PM - his shoes turned red prior to the start of the game.  So webadict II did undergo an involuntary transformation from white to red, in the same way as I had one from red to black.

Lenglon claims he saw Toaster targeting you last night.  Three possibilities:
1. Lenglon is town and telling the truth, Toaster actually did target you last night.  That means he didn't kill Jim, making him town.
2. Lenglon is mafia.  As there is almost certainly only one mafia member left, that would make Toaster not a mafia member.
3. Lenglon is town, but Toaster tricked her through some bizarre ability that renders trackers completely useless.

As long as 3 isn't true (I'm pretty sure it isn't), Toaster isn't the last mafia member.  Therefore he has an alibi.

Nobody else has anything of the sort.

Incidentally, note Lenglon's first post of the day.  She doesn't actually state who Toaster's target was.  That, to me, implies she didn't really track him and was hedging her bets.

So how did this bring about that revelation on the intrinsic color properties there? It's...very sensible that I'm hitting myself for not noticing it earlier despite my thoughts hanging on that note for 3 darn days.

Think bridal gowns.  Wedding nights.  I dunno it just clicked somehow.  Maybe reading Berserk helped.

On that note: What's your take on the whole 'elegant/rough' way to solve said puzzle?

Elegant = solve the puzzle
Rough = identify the mafia members and lynch them

Or, possibly, what I arrived at was the "rough" solution, because it requires several people to already be dead.  Maybe there's a more elegant solution you could come to with everyone still alive.

Lastly for now: Comparing Lenglon to how she performed in D2 (pre-Soli), could you detail how--because the theory is still fallible in the way that it stands in linking notes and interpretation there--she is the last scum via the other method? The realistic method?

I don't have time now, but doing a re-read of Lenglon's early game would be valuable.  I'll try it tomorrow.

Why am I not scum? Toaster. Leafsnail. I've been wondering why people have been seemingly reluctant to poke on my role or query it since the past days-and only now does a pertinent accusation of...anything (third-party?) come out.

Process of elimination.