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Author Topic: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread  (Read 19285 times)

XXSockXX

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Re: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2013, 12:29:49 am »

Does anyone know what sort of democracy Egypt actually set up? I feel like that could have well been a huge source of the problems they've experienced. It definitely seems like a bit of a winner-takes-all system with few checks and balances.
I can't comment on the specific Egyptian constitution, but one problem with "new" democracys is simply a lack of democratic culture. The winner of the elections feels legitimized to establish a more or less autocratic rule. The opposition is ignored or oppressed, as is the media (if free media exists), there is no dialogue with other groups or parts of society and the political system gets undermined to ensure continued rule. This is something that can also be observed in Russia, Eastern Europe or Turkey.
In countries with a strong democratic tradition, a lot of "checks and balances" are not even ones that are legally implemented in law and constitution, but a willingness to have a permanent dialogue between societal groups, to include minorities, react to shifts in public opinion and try to find compromises.
In the west it took centuries to get to that point, in Eastern Europe this is still an ongoing process with some countries doing better than others and in the Muslim world this is mostly a completely new concept, so bumps along the road and serious setbacks are to be expected for decades to come.
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Gervassen

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Re: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2013, 12:36:16 am »

That upper link is also muslim men raping a buddhist girl a year ago, after reading it. This time reported in Bangladesh. Second link didn't open for me, at first, so I was tingling with anticipation that it would skewer my preconceptions, then I finally opened it.

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Tensions have flared in Arakan State since 10 Muslims were killed by an angry mob on Sunday. The slayings were apparent retribution after an Arakanese woman was raped and murdered, allegedly by three Muslim men, days earlier.

Good thing there's no pattern here, though. I can't for the life of me see what in common has instigated all these flare-ups. Let's return to normal Bay12 discussion of "rape culture in patriarchal western societies" where we all know that the real dangers from culturally-embedded misogyny exist.
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Willfor

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Re: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2013, 12:48:01 am »

Good thing there's no pattern here, though. I can't for the life of me see what in common has instigated all these flare-ups. Let's return to normal Bay12 discussion of "rape culture in patriarchal western societies" where we all know that the real dangers from culturally-embedded misogyny exist.
Wow, I didn't think real people outside of reddit and comments sections ever said stuff like this. That's amazing.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2013, 12:55:46 am »

Shit, this is the first time I've seen an actual strawman argument on bay12.

Gervassen

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Re: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2013, 12:58:50 am »

I hear that they had a vote in Saudi Arabia about misogyny, and fortunately 100% of men voted that it didn't exist there. As for the women, naturally they didn't get a vote. ;)
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Willfor

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Re: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2013, 01:08:24 am »

I hear that they had a vote in Saudi Arabia about misogyny, and fortunately 100% of men voted that it didn't exist there. As for the women, naturally they didn't get a vote. ;)
All I'm trying to figure out is how this somehow magically removes the problems we have with sexism here. I bet it's related to the fact that since there is dictatorship in North Korea, there are absolutely no problems with the democracies we have here. It's totally related to that, isn't it?
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In the wells of livestock vans with shells and garden sands /
Iron mixed with oxygen as per the laws of chemistry and chance /
A shape was roughly human, it was only roughly human /
Apparition eyes / Apparition eyes / Knock, apparition, knock / Eyes, apparition eyes /

Gervassen

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Re: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2013, 01:21:41 am »

All I'm trying to figure out is how this somehow magically removes the problems we have with sexism here. I bet it's related to the fact that since there is dictatorship in North Korea, there are absolutely no problems with the democracies we have here. It's totally related to that, isn't it?

This is the Central Asia thread, so "here" in this thread is Central Asia. Why would you think the west is the focus "here". You act like being morally consistent toward examples of misogyny in other cultures somehow takes away from gender equality in the west. Maybe being morally consistent would actually strengthen your position in advancing on both fronts? Having a sense of moral outrage is not a zero-sum game or a non-renewable resource like peak oil that you have to monopolise into one geographic area.
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The way's paved with knaves that I've horribly slain.
See me coming, better run for them hills.
Listen up now...

             -- Babycakes

Willfor

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Re: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2013, 01:34:44 am »

This is the Central Asia thread, so "here" in this thread is Central Asia. Why would you think the west is the focus "here". You act like being morally consistent toward examples of misogyny in other cultures somehow takes away from gender equality in the west. Maybe being morally consistent would actually strengthen your position in advancing on both fronts? Having a sense of moral outrage is not a zero-sum game or a non-renewable resource like peak oil that you have to monopolise into one geographic area.
Okay, it is way too late at night for me to reconcile what you just said to what I initially replied to. My brain just can't do it. Good night.
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In the wells of livestock vans with shells and garden sands /
Iron mixed with oxygen as per the laws of chemistry and chance /
A shape was roughly human, it was only roughly human /
Apparition eyes / Apparition eyes / Knock, apparition, knock / Eyes, apparition eyes /

Loud Whispers

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Re: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2013, 01:54:59 am »

Oh god both of you just broke my amygdala. Why is anything both of you are saying relevant?

ed boy

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Re: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2013, 08:38:50 am »

P to the W
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scriver

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Re: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2013, 09:36:26 am »

What part of "three muslim men raped a buddhist girl to death" implies that the buddhists there are the problem? I missed that part, and suddenly everyone is lamenting all the horrible buddhists there. Consider me thrown for a loop.

1. Three men belonging to a Muslim minority rape a girl to death. They are detained.

2. Buddhists show up and intend to lynch the men. The police refuse, and it turns into a violent riot.

3. The Buddhist mob then proceeds into the Muslim neighbourhoods and starts massacring people innocent of the rape and burning the place down.

4. As the massacre continues, Muslims form groups and strikes back in order to defend themselves, causing the end result to be casualties on both sides.

Can you now understand why people would think the Buddhists did something wrong?
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Owlbread

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Re: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2013, 10:12:49 am »

I remember reading in George Orwell's accounts of "Burma" that the Burmese monks were some of the most atrocious people for colonial types to deal with. They used to shout abuse at him and make his life miserable.

Shit, this is the first time I've seen an actual strawman argument on bay12.

That's funny, I've heard the expression thrown around so much in debate threads around here that it makes me want to activate my microbomb.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 10:27:44 am by Owlbread »
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2013, 12:33:47 pm »

All I'm trying to figure out is how this somehow magically removes the problems we have with sexism here. I bet it's related to the fact that since there is dictatorship in North Korea, there are absolutely no problems with the democracies we have here. It's totally related to that, isn't it?

This is the Central Asia thread, so "here" in this thread is Central Asia. Why would you think the west is the focus "here". You act like being morally consistent toward examples of misogyny in other cultures somehow takes away from gender equality in the west. Maybe being morally consistent would actually strengthen your position in advancing on both fronts? Having a sense of moral outrage is not a zero-sum game or a non-renewable resource like peak oil that you have to monopolise into one geographic area.

Patronizing Bay12 is my job and I'm better at it, Gervassen. If you wish to make a point about Bay12's localized concerns, you have my full support. I doubt this, and if thus derail elsewhere.
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palsch

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Re: Middle Eastern/Central Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2013, 08:19:10 am »

A look at the new Egyptian constitutional declaration. This is basically the direction the new administration wants to take in reshaping the Egyptian government.
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In brief, it calls for:

- A referendum to amend the suspended 2012 constitution in around four months.
- Parliamentary elections to be called for 15 days after the success of the referendum.
- Presidential elections to be called for within a week of parliament going into session.

The referendum and the parliamentary and presidential elections could all be concluded under a year.

Remarkably, only the lower house of parliament is mentioned, suggesting that the upper house Shura council might be abolished altogether and is not in the current plans. The constitutional declaration also drops the specific stipulation of a 50% share of seats for workers and farmers in parliament, which proved to be problematic. Also, the express mentioning of popular presidential elections suggests that the general underlying intention is to have at least a hybrid political system of some sort.
They outline how the new constitution will be drafted; a ten member committee will write an early draft in about a month, seemingly with no influence beyond the current administration. At this point the draft is submitted to a 50 member assembly made up of representatives of various interests in Egypt. That group can suggest amendments but have no voting power. After two months of consultations the president receives a final draft and puts it up for a referendum a month later. Regarding the president;
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The interim president, who is the constitutional court head, officially has absolute powers, including full legislative authority. The only two items, as I understand, where his powers are limited are using the emergency law (he must get cabinet approval in general, and must undertake a referendum in case of a second extension), and declaring war (must get the approval of the national security council, whose composition is yet to be determined by him). Of course, it is widely accepted that the military is the main center of power behind the presidency.
The main thrust of the article though is the continuing influence of the Al-Nour party. They are conservative Islamists of a Salafi outlook who took second place (as part of the Islamist Bloc) to the Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice party in the last elections, holding 111 seats in parliament. They had originally supported the coup after distancing themselves from Morsi and the Brotherhood, but withdrawn this support after the recent killings.

They do appear to be in a very strong negotiating position right now, and their influence seems to be deep in the new language.
Quote
They also indicate the bargaining power Salafists have right now (which increasingly appears to be bigger than what the military and the opposition had expected), with the Salafists realizing how their presence helps the military and the opposition maintain the image of a wide multi-ideological revolution rather than that an anti-Islamist uprising, and does not play into “it’s a war against Islam” claims by the Brotherhood and some Islamists. Thus, any real potential debate on the articles is ostensibly being temporarily delayed (rather than immediately tackled in the declaration) until later when things hopefully have calmed down a bit. This will likely be the major dividing point come amendments time.
On that topic, there is no return to a ban on religious political parties as there was in 1971, just on parties that discriminate by religion. Given the current strong legal push against the Muslim Brotherhood that wouldn't have surprised me. But I guess they are trying to focus specifically on the Brotherhood being the bad guys here, while suggesting that other Islamist parties might still have a place at the table.
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Zangi

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