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Author Topic: Dissent in the United States  (Read 8019 times)

Parsely

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2013, 12:44:05 am »

well no shit there's dissent in the US, at least on the political scale. Any person inside the Republican party (and most outside of it) will tell you that the only reason that republicans are all one party is because they would be squashed by the democrats if they weren't.

Shit, you have fiscal republicans, ethical republicans, libertarians, tea partiers, as well as any minor variation on those values.
Remember there are people who believe the only reason they got squashed in the Election was that they weren't conservative enough. Also, Ethical conservatism is referred to as Social conservative.
Still waiting for the eventual right-wing party that goes so right-wing it's left-wing.

Y'mean, socialism combined with conservative nationalism? Like, some sort of... National Socialism?
National Socialism? Never heard of it. What could possibly go wrong?
I'll put this into words most people will understand: Nazism
Because no one knows what that is. ::)
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misko27

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2013, 10:45:04 am »

I can put it into simple terms. The Extremes meet.

Or, to put into Orwell's words:
Quote
Fascism, at any rate the German version, is a form of capitalism that borrows from Socialism just such features as will make it efficient for war purposes. Internally, Germany has a good deal in common with a Socialist state. Ownership has never been abolished, there are still capitalists and workers, and – this is the important point, and the real reason why rich men all over the world tend to sympathize with Fascism – generally speaking the same people are capitalists and the same people workers as before the Nazi revolution. But at the same time the State, which is simply the Nazi Party, is in control of everything. It controls investment, raw materials, rates of interest, working hours, wages. The factory owner still owns his factory, but he is for practical purposes reduced to the status of a manager. Everyone is in effect a State employee, though the salaries vary very greatly. The mere efficiency of such a system, the elimination of waste and obstruction, is obvious. In seven years it has built up the most powerful war machine the world has ever seen.

You can make your own comparisons.
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werty892

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2013, 12:36:18 pm »

Speaking from my chair, I can say that nobody like politics at this point. Its just a massive fucking mess, Obama is trying but he really is a joke,  the media is a tool of the government, see CNN deleting pro snowden comments on the articles about him, and nobody has any illusions that politics is just a mess.

misko27

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2013, 01:12:45 pm »

Speaking from my chair, I can say that nobody like politics at this point. Its just a massive fucking mess, Obama is trying but he really is a joke,  the media is a tool of the government, see CNN deleting pro snowden comments on the articles about him, and nobody has any illusions that politics is just a mess.
From my chair I would say that Fox news is very much not the tool of the government.


And no one likes politics. It's one of the great flaws of democracy. No one likes it. Actually, you want to know the 2 most politically educated and intelligent demographics out there?  People who watch the Colbert Rapport and Jon Stewart, followed closely by fans of Pundits such as Bill O'Reilly. Comedians, and Fox news. People who spend all their time, mockign the other side. Think about that for a minute please. The most sane and moderate voices are people who haven't had enough time to develop a opinion strong enough to be pushed to the right or left. Knowing things about Politics inherently makes you more Biased. Confirmation Bias is a huge, constantly re-asserting presence.

Think about this. The US turnout rate stands at 57% percent. What people don't realize is, the most extreme 25% on each side is all but certain to vote (An example, 1 in 4 Americans believe Obama was not born in the US. I found that out just now literally by googling "25% of Americans". 13% believe he is the anti-Christ (and that is from the Conservative national journal no less) And keep in mind each one one those percents is 3 Million Human Beings. That means that a disproportionately small amount of the middle is voting. The logical extension of that is that a minority of the majority is running the show.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2013, 01:30:27 pm »

'Dissent'.. As if Americans know what that is, Post-Vietnam. We're all pretty good sheeple in grand terms. Even our 'major grassroots movements' are orchestrated by a non-plurality.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2013, 01:43:57 pm »

I... don't think it's possible to have something organized by a plurality? Wouldn't that mean you'd have more organizers than organizees? Also, since suppressing
"movements" is one of those things with wide bipartisan support, I doubt that's likely to change.

Quote
People who watch the Colbert Rapport and Jon Stewart, followed closely by fans of Pundits such as Bill O'Reilly. Comedians, and Fox news. People who spend all their time, mockign the other side. Think about that for a minute please
Now, now, I'm pretty sure The Daily Show at least spends a great deal of time mocking their "own" side as well. There were actually some pundits on fox who went against the establishment and "their" side for a while to as well, but I don't think they are around anymore.

Fox News may not be a tool of the government, but it is very much a tool of the powerful - and while there are a wide variety of issues that it is safe for the powerful to disagree on and make the central narrative in their big fight, it seems we can rest assured that the stuff they do agree on is almost always going to be the worst stuff possible. When does Fox actually speak against "the government" anyway - they rail against liberals and liberal programs, but they also support greatly increasing the governments size and scope and power, at least the various pundits I've heard do, so... I dunno. They may not be a tool of the administration, but it would be silly to think that the administration is the government.

I don't actually THINK they are a tool of the government, except insofar as being such is something Murdoch thinks is useful, but I don't think their inherently hostile to the idea if they think they can do better by being so...
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 01:45:48 pm by GlyphGryph »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2013, 03:04:05 pm »

Speaking from my chair, I can say that nobody like politics at this point. Its just a massive fucking mess, Obama is trying but he really is a joke,  the media is a tool of the government, see CNN deleting pro snowden comments on the articles about him, and nobody has any illusions that politics is just a mess.
From my chair I would say that Fox news is very much not the tool of the government.
It's all about controlled opposition.

You get president 1. Everything gets worse, disappointment leads to hope that president X+1 will change things.
Everything gets worse, people look the other way for another president X+1, identical in every way but differences skin deep.
Everything goes on and on. Rupert and Ted own all the media. Hell, Rupert owns fox, highly critical of Obama and yet Obama relaxed media ownership laws just so Rupert could also buy Chicago's news companies. There is no truly free press in the American media.

Bdthemag

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2013, 03:59:22 pm »

I think it's unlikely the Amercian governments "owns" ALL of the media. Either he media represents individual interests, which just so happen want to support the Obama administration, as opposed to the government somehow controlling everything.

I think the American people in general need to stop pinning everything on the government. Yes, they're fucking up on a CONSISTENT basis, but this is a democracy regardless of the inherent flaws in it. If we're really sick of all of this, then we all could organize and push for reforms and changes in the government. No one wants to, at least a large majority of people don't want to. It's not because of a secret plot to lull the American people into a false-sense of security, or any bullshit like that. The people are supposed to prevent the government from abusing its powers, and we're not fulfilling our end of the bargain.

The media also reflects, in a way, what people want to see. They cover only big "scandals" or political events because people start hearing about them, and are of course curious. But in the meantime, they cover small issues or just soft-news for monetary gain. If everyone in America was interested in serious politics, you bet your ass news organizations would be covering legitimate political issues to get more views.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2013, 04:54:05 pm »

I think it's unlikely the Amercian governments "owns" ALL of the media.
You're right, but you're also wrong. The government's owned, the media's owned and all by an elite few. The former is an opinion, the latter is a fact.

I think the American people in general need to stop pinning everything on the government.
Being too reliant on the government for change makes it impossible to change the government.

Yes, they're fucking up on a CONSISTENT basis, but this is a democracy regardless of the inherent flaws in it.
Republic the people have little control over.

Spoiler: No (click to show/hide)

No one wants to, at least a large majority of people don't want to. It's not because of a secret plot to lull the American people into a false-sense of security, or any bullshit like that. The people are supposed to prevent the government from abusing its powers, and we're not fulfilling our end of the bargain.
It doesn't need to be some Illuminati-tier conspiracy. It's rather simple really; all of the media is owned by the few moguls, the moguls benefit from supporting the system that allows them to grow their capital empire. The people are ignorant, materialistic and easily impressionable as long as they hear what they wish to hear. By controlling every bit of information that people seek to hear, no matter who the people support it'll support them.

Lagslayer

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2013, 04:57:31 pm »

I think it's unlikely the Amercian governments "owns" ALL of the media. Either he media represents individual interests, which just so happen want to support the Obama administration, as opposed to the government somehow controlling everything.

I think the American people in general need to stop pinning everything on the government. Yes, they're fucking up on a CONSISTENT basis, but this is a democracy regardless of the inherent flaws in it. If we're really sick of all of this, then we all could organize and push for reforms and changes in the government. No one wants to, at least a large majority of people don't want to. It's not because of a secret plot to lull the American people into a false-sense of security, or any bullshit like that. The people are supposed to prevent the government from abusing its powers, and we're not fulfilling our end of the bargain.

The media also reflects, in a way, what people want to see. They cover only big "scandals" or political events because people start hearing about them, and are of course curious. But in the meantime, they cover small issues or just soft-news for monetary gain. If everyone in America was interested in serious politics, you bet your ass news organizations would be covering legitimate political issues to get more views.
+1

Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2013, 07:09:08 pm »

I think it's unlikely the Amercian governments "owns" ALL of the media. Either he media represents individual interests, which just so happen want to support the Obama administration, as opposed to the government somehow controlling everything.

I think the American people in general need to stop pinning everything on the government. Yes, they're fucking up on a CONSISTENT basis, but this is a democracy regardless of the inherent flaws in it. If we're really sick of all of this, then we all could organize and push for reforms and changes in the government. No one wants to, at least a large majority of people don't want to. It's not because of a secret plot to lull the American people into a false-sense of security, or any bullshit like that. The people are supposed to prevent the government from abusing its powers, and we're not fulfilling our end of the bargain.

The media also reflects, in a way, what people want to see. They cover only big "scandals" or political events because people start hearing about them, and are of course curious. But in the meantime, they cover small issues or just soft-news for monetary gain. If everyone in America was interested in serious politics, you bet your ass news organizations would be covering legitimate political issues to get more views.
+1

It's the man making the people hold the people down, man.

I will say this once: Raw material will always be indicative of the quality of the output. Trash in, trash out, in other words.

You take a severely uneducated and lazy populace and mix it with self-regulating election rules and you find things unravel. Our government will not become better until we become better at running our own government [as opposed to handing the job off to those most likely to be corrupt, the ones most likely to desire entire control instead of doing it in service of their country, thanks to the intense negative societal view of government service which has caused a brain-drain like effect]. I dunno.

I just know our government's ability to help or hinder its own progress is entirely impinged by the populace's participation and self-education on issues they consider important. I rarely see the first; and rarer the latter, with any amount of cooperation from anyone. Our country is one of very little compromise anymore, and it's shown by our ineffective government. The only shield we have from our inevitable corporate dystopian future is a strong and representative government, that reacts in according to the wishes of the people.

It should be obvious that it's not, atleast right now. Hell, it two almost two years to reauthorize the VAWA [Violence against women act].. And there's noone to blame but the populace. I stand by my claim that we're all very good sheeple to the orchestra that is played by the corporate powers-that-be, the ones who have and continue to strengthen their grip on power and slowly dissolve ANY efficiency of our government, to strengthen the narrative that we should just eliminate regulations all over the place.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2013, 07:51:38 pm »

This is why I spent two years on this board trying to push my alternative to the current election system that would have, I think, done quite a lot to fix many of the problems you see with the populace failing to be as effective a balance as they should be. Before realizing that doing so was stupid because it would never happen since the people in charge have no desire for additional checks and balances, but eh.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2013, 08:05:03 pm »

A few of CGPGrey's videos, especially this one, might be of interest to the people in this thread.

For those too lazy to watch the video, this is the main relevant point: people in the US will always be dissatisfied with the government, because the US will always be under minority rule, due to our winner take all voting system.  This is also why the two main political parties are coalitions, and why our election campaigns tend to be negative.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2013, 08:16:50 pm »

And I think even the systems he proposes are significantly less effective than a randomized regularly replaced professional voting pool would be.
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Bdthemag

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Re: Dissent in the United States
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2013, 12:52:13 am »

I think the American people in general need to stop pinning everything on the government.
Being too reliant on the government for change makes it impossible to change the government.
If you expect the elected politicians to change the government themselves, then yes. But within the current rules of the American government, it's perfectly possible for people to push for reform if enough organization is presented.

Yes, they're fucking up on a CONSISTENT basis, but this is a democracy regardless of the inherent flaws in it.
Republic the people have little control over.
As stated above, our current system of government is in no way set up to benefit only the people in power. We have the option to vote for candidates from the level of local government, to the level of national government. We have PLENTY of control, we just choose not to use or enforce it. Again, the system is NOT set up to make it difficult for the average person to get involved, it's very open to general input.

No one wants to, at least a large majority of people don't want to. It's not because of a secret plot to lull the American people into a false-sense of security, or any bullshit like that. The people are supposed to prevent the government from abusing its powers, and we're not fulfilling our end of the bargain.
It doesn't need to be some Illuminati-tier conspiracy. It's rather simple really; all of the media is owned by the few moguls, the moguls benefit from supporting the system that allows them to grow their capital empire. The people are ignorant, materialistic and easily impressionable as long as they hear what they wish to hear. By controlling every bit of information that people seek to hear, no matter who the people support it'll support them.
See, I agree partially with this. I think it IS media moguls trying to serve their best interests, but only to a point. I don't think they intend to make the populace ignorant, but to make more money. They MAY be taking advantage of our self-imposed ignorance, but they're not trying to lull us into some false-sense of security or anything. They're taking advantage of the current situation, and this is by catering to what we want, plain and simple.

People in general like to point fingers at why something is wrong (Much like how I'm doing now). The government is why we aren't changing, the media is why we aren't changing, the American public is why we aren't changing, or a mix of all three. But we can all point fingers all we want, but you can't get someone more interested in something important by yelling at them that they should, because it's important. It's like telling a kid to do his homework because it's important, if he already doesn't give a shit telling him to do it won't make him give any more of a shit.

How I see it, the only way to renew people's interest in politics (Outside of wars, economic depression, and other simple alternatives) is to simply get involved yourself. It sounds cheesy, but it's true. You won't see instant results, but the more people you get organized to actually do something, the higher chance that'll make someone want to do something in turn. Fuck, even if you think that it's the government just taking advantage of it, go out there and tell people about it. Because arguing and taking part in political activism in real life is much more effective than doing it on the internet. A lot of people don't realize that there is a buffer between the national government overstepping its powers, besides our current system of checks and balances amongst the different departments. The people are supposed to serve as a secondary buffer, to put the government in its place if it steps out of its boundaries.

This is why I spent two years on this board trying to push my alternative to the current election system that would have, I think, done quite a lot to fix many of the problems you see with the populace failing to be as effective a balance as they should be. Before realizing that doing so was stupid because it would never happen since the people in charge have no desire for additional checks and balances, but eh.
Regarding election reforms, the one relevant issue I see being the most likely to change in the future is the Electoral College system. It really only is somewhat brought up around election time, but it's a relic of a time when the government didn't trust the average man to vote, and instead gave that right to wealthy, educated, landowners. If we just eliminate that entire system, and leave it up to a general percentage vote, I think the negatives to this system are far more preferable than the negatives to the electoral college.

I'd also like to see more encouragements set in place to alternative third parties forming, and the eventual drift to a system that heavily supports multiple parties forming, but that's unlikely to happen since the two-party system is engrained deep in our politics. But I suppose saying that most third parties are shafted is only partially true. Most people don't realize that the two parties in order to survive, and gain more votes, they often just absorb some of the ideas of other third parties. It's been done before, rather recently with the Republican party taking in some of the ideas and beliefs of the Tea Party.
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