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[Willfor]

It hasn't left it's home there because every time I see it used outside the SJ community it's being used by someone trying to say that it's all a bunch of shit. This is something that needs to change.

[Kaitlyn]

So the OP is arguing against excluding people from their groups and not using labels to hurt people. I certainly cannot disagree with that. As a transitioning mtf, I've never heard of anyone insulting cisgender people as a whole or using cisgender as a slur. I don't tend to hang out with other transpeople, however. I also don't know what the SJ community the previous two posters referred to is. Google's best guess was Jesuits which I highly doubt is correct...

As for my opinion on labels, I don't mind them. I sort of like them, frankly. Labels don't lie, provided you don't buy into stereotypes and whatnot and can help people identify as part of a group, if that's their thing. If people use labels as an excuse not to care about a kind of person then they clearly lack empathy and understanding, regardless of what they are themselves.

[Scelly9]

though I hate the phrase, "cisgender".

Why?

I realize it's a legitimate phrase. I don't like it because I only ever see it used when a) someone is apologizing for their "cis privilege", or b) someone is accusing someone else of it. I never see it detached from implications, if not explicit accusations, of someone's privilege. It has its home in the SJ community, and it seems like it's never left that home.

Ah. I browse a few GLBTWTFBBQ forums/webcomics and it seems to be used legitimately quite often.

As a transitioning mtf, I've never heard of anyone insulting cisgender people as a whole or using cisgender as a slur.

It's mostly the insane tumblr people that use it like that.

[EnigmaticHat]

My guess is that the word cis is used responsibly by trans or LGBT people talking to each other, and the majority of people don't see it outside of Tumblr because most people don't spend much time thinking about trans-anything within their daily lives.  Well, maybe trans fats, but that's not what we're talking about here.

...Also I might as well PTW since I was part of the original derail.

[Kaitlyn]

It's mostly the insane tumblr people that use it like that.

Well, that explains it.

[Shakerag]

I presume that the inhabitants of Bay12 may be more socially conscientious then many, but I'm less certain about how active they are. I dislike the level of consumer and producer investment in games. I tell relatives about the enormous funds raised on Kickstarter for games, and i share their sentiment when they make the obvious point. I use these boards because of my first line, the game has merit, and it's free.

Producer invenstment in games I can understand, but consumer investment?  Unless you're going the "try to please everyone and end up pleasing no one" route. 

In so far as activism is concerned, there are three different "causes" that I regularly (and a few more that I irregularly) donate money to, write letters/sign petitions for, and have even participated in a few "go to state capital and pursuade lawmakers" rally day things. 

[SealyStar]

I also don't know what the SJ community the previous two posters referred to is.

Social Justice. A good concept in itself that sometimes gets taken to extremes with insinuations of "privilege" against one's opponents and pretending to be incessantly persecuted.

[RedKing]

I also don't know what the SJ community the previous two posters referred to is.

Social Justice. A good concept in itself that sometimes gets taken to extremes with insinuations of "privilege" against one's opponents and pretending to be incessantly persecuted.

You bastard lactose-tolerant mutants*. You and your dairy-laden oppression will come to a cheesy end one day.

*No, really. Lactose tolerance beyond childhood is apparently an adaptive mutation that prior versions of Homo sapiens lacked. Enjoy your X-Men powers.

[GlyphGryph]

Most humans still lack lactose tolerance.

[FearfulJesuit]

Going a bit beyond the gay/straight/bi, trans/cis and such issues, I do think there's a certain species of SJW- mainly on Tumblr- that seems to believe that every bit of variation in human experience must be labeled, and that that label must be an identity. I'm not going to argue, for example, that people have varying or no level of sexual desire. But let's not pretend that if you start proclaiming that you're a Gray-A or a Demisexual or a Queerplatonic that that looks anything like being trans or bi. Sure, it may be correct, technically, but nobody is oppressing you for it, and nobody, aside perhaps from your significant other, will really care. I think once the culture wars start to wind down, hopefully by the end of the century, we'll throw out some of the more nebulous labels because we'll just see them as variation in human personalities. I mean, you could identify as someone who doesn't like cheeseburgers and make a flag for it, but what would the point be? (Hopefully we'll get to that point with orientation and gender identity, too, although I'm not entirely sure what to think of non-binary people. When you look at brain scans of people who are trans, you can see the similarities with their mental gender that don't match up with scans of cis people of their physical sex, and that isn't true with genderqueer people. As I've argued before, there are no identities, there are only facts. But that is a huge can of worms.)

[Scoops Novel]

I presume that the inhabitants of Bay12 may be more socially conscientious then many, but I'm less certain about how active they are. I dislike the level of consumer and producer investment in games. I tell relatives about the enormous funds raised on Kickstarter for games, and i share their sentiment when they make the obvious point. I use these boards because of my first line, the game has merit, and it's free.

Producer invenstment in games I can understand, but consumer investment?  Unless you're going the "try to please everyone and end up pleasing no one" route. 

In so far as activism is concerned, there are three different "causes" that I regularly (and a few more that I irregularly) donate money to, write letters/sign petitions for, and have even participated in a few "go to state capital and pursuade lawmakers" rally day things.

By consumer investment, i mean the ubiquitous (and understandable) 100's of steam games in library's. I'm one of those people who find not angling your life as a whole towards your moral's as irritating, and yes, I have hypocrisies to work on. I accept that games and other such leisure activities have merit and are useful, but not to the extent that we currently use them, and not as they usually are.

Going a bit beyond the gay/straight/bi, trans/cis and such issues, I do think there's a certain species of SJW- mainly on Tumblr- that seems to believe that every bit of variation in human experience must be labeled, and that that label must be an identity. I'm not going to argue, for example, that people have varying or no level of sexual desire. But let's not pretend that if you start proclaiming that you're a Gray-A or a Demisexual or a Queerplatonic that that looks anything like being trans or bi. Sure, it may be correct, technically, but nobody is oppressing you for it, and nobody, aside perhaps from your significant other, will really care. I think once the culture wars start to wind down, hopefully by the end of the century, we'll throw out some of the more nebulous labels because we'll just see them as variation in human personalities. I mean, you could identify as someone who doesn't like cheeseburgers and make a flag for it, but what would the point be? (Hopefully we'll get to that point with orientation and gender identity, too, although I'm not entirely sure what to think of non-binary people. When you look at brain scans of people who are trans, you can see the similarities with their mental gender that don't match up with scans of cis people of their physical sex, and that isn't true with genderqueer people. As I've argued before, there are no identities, there are only facts. But that is a huge can of worms.)

As for the culture wars, i find it interesting how we disregard the first world/third world polarization, particularly when more of the latter goes to an even keel with the former (whilst they take the brunt of it's actions), when we really shouldn't. It's not going to make for good memories.

[Lectorog]

Spoiler: analogy (click to show/hide)

When the boys set up their clubhouse and put up the sign "boys only, no girls allowed" (and, as is implied, no transgender or androgynous folk either), the natural inclination of those that remain is almost always "Well, fine, we'll set up OUR OWN clubhouse", which promptly puts up a sign saying "girls only, no boys allowed" (and, as is implied, no transgender or androgynous folk either), leaving a smaller group of excluded people who are now even MORE excluded. This is followed by the transfolk saying "Well, fine, we'll set up OUR OWN clubhouse" and promptly posting a sign saying "trans only, no cis allowed" (and, as is implied, no androgynous folk either).

So trans boys/girls aren't boys/girls? Trans folk are closer to other trans folk (regardless of gender) than they are to cis folk?

I think once the culture wars start to wind down, hopefully by the end of the century, we'll throw out some of the more nebulous labels because we'll just see them as variation in human personalities.

Apply this to mental disorders rather than gender identities and you'll find yourself with a much less agreeable statement.
The point is that labels have a use - they allow you to lump people together based on similarities. With those people in a lump, you can deal with those features they have in common. In the case of mental disorders, it's helping them live properly; in the case of gender identities and similar, it's helping overcome oppression and other negativity.
Labels fitting only a single person are pretty useless, but almost all will apply to multiple people. The labels will bring those people together on matters regarding the labeled traits, which can be very useful - at the least, it provides social benefit.
Overlabeling isn't a problem if you're socially labeling yourself. That's where it differs from labeling disorders. I see no reason to not support social labeling; a person can always remove their own labels if they're not comfortable.

[FearfulJesuit]

Oh, I'm not saying we'll throw out the gender identity or orientation labels. I'm talking about demisexuality and that sort of thing.

[RedKing]

Most humans still lack lactose tolerance.

If only because most humans are Asian. 

Majority of Caucasian populations retain lactose tolerance late in life or even permanently.

[GlyphGryph]

Spoiler: analogy (click to show/hide)

When the boys set up their clubhouse and put up the sign "boys only, no girls allowed" (and, as is implied, no transgender or androgynous folk either), the natural inclination of those that remain is almost always "Well, fine, we'll set up OUR OWN clubhouse", which promptly puts up a sign saying "girls only, no boys allowed" (and, as is implied, no transgender or androgynous folk either), leaving a smaller group of excluded people who are now even MORE excluded. This is followed by the transfolk saying "Well, fine, we'll set up OUR OWN clubhouse" and promptly posting a sign saying "trans only, no cis allowed" (and, as is implied, no androgynous folk either).

So trans boys/girls aren't boys/girls? Trans folk are closer to other trans folk (regardless of gender) than they are to cis folk?

If THIS is the question you're asking, if this is really all you got out of that, I have to believe you've completely missed the entire point of the analogy, and, in all likelihood, every one of of the points from my entire post, for the good of my sanity. It's not even a sensible question! It literally means nothing unless you give it some context.

So, if you think it really is a valid question, and you actually want to know the answer, and you can explain why you're asking and what sort of answer you want, I'll do my best to respond.

Or I can break the analogy down and explain it to you piece by, if you don't think you've understood it.