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[XXSockXX]

I don't think I've heard the word "cisgender" much outside this forum. But why someone would have a problem with the word is beyond me. It is obviously useful a) in discussions of gender identity in a scientific context and b) as a word transgender people can use for non-transgender people, like most groups have a word for outsiders.

If there is a small group that uses the word as an insult, well whatever. I haven't heard about this Social Justice thing outside this forum at all and I reckon it does not deserve that much attention.

[Skyrunner]

Tumblr uses it a lot. Oftentimes in an "unfortunately cis" context.

[kingfisher1112]

As far as I'm concerned, "die cis scum" is just a fantastic litmus test for hidden transphobes. Anyone using it seriously is very silly.

There are a lot of people who will talk about how great of a trans ally they are, but the moment they hear that phrase they explode. "You're just as bad as transphobes! You don't deserve rights if you don't respect us as much as we respect you!" It's a priceless (if slightly depressing) moment.

It's hypocritical to go on about labels and identity and how the mainstream doesn't understand you and your culture/identity and then label and identify someone who is on your side. If you want your little clubhouse, that's just fine. Don't ask non-transsexuals for help.
Also, what is with this trend of -phobe? Homophobe, transphobe... Maybe I should start calling people gunphobes. Hey, that works. I like that.

[DJ]

I'm not prejudiced, anyone who tells me to die is a prick, regardless of gender, race, age or religion.

[Dutchling]

As far as I'm concerned, "die cis scum" is just a fantastic litmus test for hidden transphobes. Anyone using it seriously is very silly.

There are a lot of people who will talk about how great of a trans ally they are, but the moment they hear that phrase they explode. "You're just as bad as transphobes! You don't deserve rights if you don't respect us as much as we respect you!" It's a priceless (if slightly depressing) moment.

"everyone who doesn't agree with me hates trans people and is a bigot!"

[Vector]

It's hypocritical to go on about labels and identity and how the mainstream doesn't understand you and your culture/identity and then label and identify someone who is on your side. If you want your little clubhouse, that's just fine. Don't ask non-transsexuals for help.

How do you feel about Bradley Manning?

[palsch]

For those who haven't seen it, the original die cis scum post. I happen to think it stands alone pretty well. I'm pretty sure everyone here has the context and intelligence to get the point as well.

[kingfisher1112]

It's hypocritical to go on about labels and identity and how the mainstream doesn't understand you and your culture/identity and then label and identify someone who is on your side. If you want your little clubhouse, that's just fine. Don't ask non-transsexuals for help.

How do you feel about Bradley Manning?

...
He's a Marine? I don't get what the question has to do with transsexual discussion.

[Vector]

Manning is transgendered.

My question is this: do you think that the marginalized population that's been labeled and, you know, actually killed and actually disproportionately influenced by sexual violence has any responsibility whatsoever to mainstream society?  Is Manning a turncoat?

For some reason you seem to think that this whole labeling and exiling thing only works one way.  It's fine when you do it.  But it's not okay when they do it.  They have a responsibility to you, but you don't have a responsibility to them.

Why is that?

[kingfisher1112]

Manning is transgendered.

My question is this: do you think that the marginalized population that's been labeled and, you know, actually killed and actually disproportionately influenced by sexual violence has any responsibility whatsoever to mainstream society?  Is Manning a turncoat?

For some reason you seem to think that this whole labeling and exiling thing only works one way.  It's fine when you do it.  But it's not okay when they do it.  They have a responsibility to you, but you don't have a responsibility to them.

Why is that?

No, I think it's hypocritical that transgendered activists don't like labels ( as a general rule) so they slap a label onto someone else. Exiling non-Trans people while being a Trans person is bad thing, and so is the other way round. And I'm still not getting what Manning has to do with it.

[aenri]

Ouch, this discussion is rolling too fast for me. I donīt really care for semantic discussion that is going on so I will respond to replies to my comment.

That's the thing--WHY IS IT IMPORTANT if it's natural or a choice?

Clarification what I meant with born disorder - I wasnīt calling their sexuality into question at all.
I was just pointing out that transpeople have problems identifying with their physical gender (a mismatch between physical/mental side if you donīt like term disorder). And that there are medical procedures that can help them.
Financing them is whole another can of worms.

No, it is debated whether it's natural or learned. Nobody who knows anything about transsexuality believes it to be a choice.

The point is I canīt see it as choice/learned state. Either you have this problem from start or you donīt (I am not a professional on this subject by any means, so could you possibly get gender mismatch by other means than genetics, like drugs or physical/mental trauma?).

Also I donīt think this has to do too much with sexuality. You can be attracted to pretty much anyone/anything. It doesnīt change the fact that your body and mind are not synced.

As for the otherkins and such people, I canīt classify them as trans. I take that as their religious beliefs - so its not for me to judge them.

[palsch]

No, I think it's hypocritical that transgendered activists don't like labels ( as a general rule) so they slap a label onto someone else.

Where are you getting that they don't like labels?

Often they don't like being labelled by outside groups. By having their identity either defined or denied by those outside that identity.

Which is exactly why I like the term cis. It turns that feeling around and makes those who usually do the defining feel what those groups usually feel when it's done to them. Only on a far smaller and less important scale and without any legal implications.

Most people have trouble understanding what something is like unless they experience at least some element of it themselves or witness it firsthand in a way they can't ignore. It seems that the term cis is working on some level here. There is still a failure of empathy, but now it's about refusing to project what 'you' (the person being called cis) feel onto other people (scaled way up) rather than the reverse. Which is progress of a sort.

[Loud Whispers]

Am I the only one here who's in favor of labels?  We have words so that we can talk about things and understand things.  If we don't have a word for being trans or gay or cis or straight it becomes much harder to talk about those categories and to explain them to those who don't understand them.

The definition of a label when applied to human context is that it is a restrictive identifier. You don't say

• to describe phenomenon [y], you say
• to lump all people [y] into label
• . Then people [y] lose their individuality to endorse label
• .

[XXSockXX]

For those who haven't seen it, the original die cis scum post. I happen to think it stands alone pretty well. I'm pretty sure everyone here has the context and intelligence to get the point as well.

Is that what all the fuss is about? Because from the discussion I was expecting something far more...stupid.
This is just an understandable sentiment of counter-aggression and I don't feel offended or threatened or whatever about that. It is basically someone (rightfully) fed up with discrimination and trying to coin their own ACAB or something.

Most people have trouble understanding what something is like unless they experience at least some element of it themselves or witness it firsthand in a way they can't ignore. It seems that the term cis is working on some level here. There is still a failure of empathy, but now it's about refusing to project what 'you' (the person being called cis) feel onto other people (scaled way up) rather than the reverse. Which is progress of a sort.

It doesn't seem to work for me that way, since the label is essentially meaningless to the vast majority of people. You cannot really get an idea about discrimination if you were never part of a group that is discriminated against.

[kingfisher1112]

No, I think it's hypocritical that transgendered activists don't like labels ( as a general rule) so they slap a label onto someone else.

Where are you getting that they don't like labels?

Often they don't like being labelled by outside groups. By having their identity either defined or denied by those outside that identity.

Which is exactly why I like the term cis. It turns that feeling around and makes those who usually do the defining feel what those groups usually feel when it's done to them. Only on a far smaller and less important scale and without any legal implications.

Most people have trouble understanding what something is like unless they experience at least some element of it themselves or witness it firsthand in a way they can't ignore. It seems that the term cis is working on some level here. There is still a failure of empathy, but now it's about refusing to project what 'you' (the person being called cis) feel onto other people (scaled way up) rather than the reverse. Which is progress of a sort.

So basically your point is I don't understand the marginalization and how nasty labels are and how bad they are when I slap them onto other people.
The problem with that is that I do. I fully understand marginalization and just how bad labels are. I'm part of a few groups getting labeled. Yes, I do understand the plight of Trans people. But using terms like cis isn't getting them anywhere. Doing something to people which you don't like who are on your side only breeds hate. If it keeps going on like this, in believing that slapping labels on other people makes them understand, you aren't going to get far.