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Author Topic: Small powerless repeater, now with piccies  (Read 1075 times)

Larix

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Small powerless repeater, now with piccies
« on: June 25, 2013, 01:06:18 pm »

Since it got totally buried under my rambling, here's a short account of the very small-sized repeater i ran into:



Upper level, buildings hidden.



Upper level, with buildings. The pressure plate activates on track and is linked to the hatch cover. The cart is sitting on the track stop.



Lower level. Just two ramps, SE and NE track corners engraved. I had mined out the surrounding walls to check if the cart will derail. It derails on the lower, but not on the upper level.

The cart spins counter-clockwise. It keeps falling into the pit, where it gains speed from buggy ramp behaviour and thus stays in circulation. The pressure plate opens the hatch cover and thus sends the cart on the shorter, not-activating loop until the plate resets and closes the hatch again. My observed repeat time was a bit over 130 ticks.
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Sutremaine

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Re: Small powerless repeater, now with piccies
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2013, 01:22:26 pm »

Very nice.

Edit, based on information in the other topic: Perhaps you could extend the lower level one tile east and put impulse ramps on the corners? They don't have the constant acceleration that straight impulse ramps have, and may cancel out the acceleration from the repeated downhill rolls.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 01:31:11 pm by Sutremaine »
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I am trying to make chickens lay bees as eggs. So far it only produces a single "Tame Small Creature" when a hen lays bees.
Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

Larix

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Re: Small powerless repeater, now with piccies
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2013, 05:11:31 pm »

I'm not sure i understand. Just in case there's any confusion - the features to the north, south and west of the double ramp on the lower level are not tracks but constructed walls. I had mined away the walls to check for derail effects, and because derailing took place i built new walls around the pit.

In any case, i'm probably missing your point - i fail to see what purpose impulse ramps would serve here. Could you please elaborate?
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Sutremaine

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Re: Small powerless repeater, now with piccies
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 07:27:21 am »

The idea was to use corner impulse ramps to provide the propulsion, but I'm having trouble getting it to work myself.
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I am trying to make chickens lay bees as eggs. So far it only produces a single "Tame Small Creature" when a hen lays bees.
Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

Larix

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Re: Small powerless repeater, now with piccies
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2013, 09:47:35 am »

The strange ramp effect provides reliable power and a pretty regular overall speed to the cart. I've no idea how to regulate the repeat times apart from adding low-to-medium friction track stops on the flat tracks.

The setup can also be easily used for a latch with no moving parts: a simple 2x2 round circuit, two of them on flat ground, two on ramps below. Can be primed and stopped by a lever-operated hatch over one of the ramps. Basically the repeater in pictures one and two above without the western half on the upper loop.

And while i was at it, a compact powerless repeater without moving parts:

upper half:


The minecart is moving across a NW track corner.

lower half:


Just like in the self-lifter, a NW and SW track ramp on the bottom. Ordinary carved NS ramp to the north, beyond the pressure plate. The tricky bit is that because of the different design of the upstairs loop, forcing carts to come in from the south, the southern one of the two track ramps apparently works as an impulse ramp. The cart will go several rounds on the circuit until it reaches derail speed, then shoots off north, bounces into the wall/ramp and rolls back into the accelerator loop. It takes about 80 ticks to get to derail after entering the loop, so this was the shortest design that actually releases the plate before the cart passes over it again. You'll need a longer bounce track if you want to operate spikes this way, but the return time seems to be very reliable.

And what happens if you leash several of these self-derailers after each other, to hopefully get nice intervals for delay-response actions like spikes and bridges? Madness:



Not only do _i_ have a hard time understanding the design, it's very erratic - there are three self-derailers here, two heading south and one heading north. After the cart derails on the northwestern loop, it goes directly up a ramp and into the second loop. Once it leaves that, it takes a 180° turn and enters the southeastern loop before exiting that and going through the return track (Overall movement counterclockwise). I first tried it with only two derailers and an upper-level return track (there are remnants of that attempt still visible), but the cart comes out of the loops so quick that it often jumps off ramps, bouncing into walls or ceilings and stopping dead. In fact, that always happens when it moves from the northwest to the southwest derailer - it slams into the wall, but fortunately falls on top of a ramp and regains speed there. The overall time for a full circle is _around_ 400 ticks, but it seems to vary. A bridge linked to two pressure plates which were just over 200 ticks apart in a sample is waving very very erratically.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 09:52:23 am by Larix »
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gchristopher

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Re: Small powerless repeater, now with piccies
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2013, 01:02:11 pm »

The overall time for a full circle is _around_ 400 ticks, but it seems to vary.
Sorry, have been too busy to catch up to these neat designs. They look very cool!

As far as I can tell, cart behavior is purely deterministic, but especially with derailment and collisions, a cart can have a velocity that isn't in its primary direction of motion and accumulate offset values within the tile that aren't apparent just from watching its movement. These velocities and offsets can make what's actually happening to the cart appear to vary or be random, because just knowing what tile the cart occupies doesn't tell you everything about its state. A dwarf picking up and dropping a cart always resets it to 0 offset, but I'm not totally sure what the rules for tracks and offsets are. dfhack autodump doesn't reset offsets and an autodumped cart can do very strange things.

It's worth keeping in mind when you see weird behavior, so you can probe its state tick-by-tick in the vehicles array to help diagnose things.
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Larix

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Re: Small powerless repeater, now with piccies
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2013, 03:28:27 pm »

Hmyea, the cart's regular collision with the wall always sets its forward speed to zero, although some carry-over from the last loop might still exist.

The most likely explanation is that i miscounted the ticks :P

Throwing a cart into a pit with nothing but ramps to stand on is really freaky - as long as a ramp has a track attached to a wall, it appears to give the cart some acceleration, and if the next tile it moves onto is another ramp, the impulse doesn't seem to get processed accurately. There's absolutely no need for impulse tricks, a two-ramp pit with nothing but straight NS track through it will automatically lift a cart out of it that got dumped in by opening a hatch. With nearby walled-off ramps to bounce it against, that's another easy latch design, although not as elegant as the round track that can be shut off by closing the hatch again.

Double ramps are also a ridiculously-easy constructed cart elevator - just make a long two-wide ramp, engrave each level with a 'hanging loop' track - if the path ascends from south to north, NE-WN. Push a cart into it and it'll climb any number of levels at a leisurely six ticks per level. Since the cart always arrives at a new z-level from an 'illegal' direction, that's basically a variation on the impulse ramp spiral.
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