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[Cthulhu]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The last few conversations with Flowey got me thinking he thought it was Chara when he was really talking to me, the player, who exists completely externally to their universe and doesn't even recognize them as real people.

I think that would've been more interesting too.  Like I mentioned before, you've got an omnipotent outsider fucking with your universe for fun.  Sans seems to be implying that too.  The perspective shift makes the alternative confusing.  If I'm chara why is the final screen from Frisk's perspective?  Or from my perspective?  It doesn't make sense to me.

I dunno.  I feel like it would've been better if it wasn't chara.  Maybe Flowey mistakes you for Chara at first my alternative makes the player Cthulhu.  You're an external entity manipulating their lives for reasons they can't comprehend.

It didn't occur to me until just now but if this game had come out when the graphics suggest it would've come out, the genocide ending would've been one of those spooky rumors your friend told you about at lunch, that if you stay in the first room nad kill all the monsters everything gets scary and everybody's dead.

[Leafsnail]

The secrets you can get via trickery also look a lot like those spooky urban legends.

[SeriousConcentrate]

I'm dragging one of Putnam's posts from the WTF thread over here since it's relevant to this thread and I wanted to comment on it. Actually, I just wanted to talk about the excellent music in Undertale and found an excuse. Also, this is going to be a somewhat spoiler heavy post, so just look over it if you wanna.

my youtube comments and some stuff i've seen on reddit suggests that a lot of people just, uh, don't know that leitmotifs were a big thing way before undertale
like yes undertale has great usage of it, very great
but like
i've seen people complain about it, accuse it of being lazy
i really want to do a few leitmotif videos for, like, final fantasy X or something, like one for suteki da ne and one for to zanarkand etc.
just to be like
"dude undertale didn't invent this"

oh, and at least undertale mostly actually has new pieces of music for different situations, how many times does organization XIII or sora's theme show up in kingdom hearts goddamn

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I just wanted to say anyone who thinks leitmotifs are lazy is an idiot. They're great for drawing parallels between situations, characters, themes, moods. I think the constant musical callbacks are better done in Undertale than any other game I've played - and the fact I remember most of the music in Undertale (as opposed to say, Dark Souls, a game I love but I can only really tell you what Firelink Shrine, the O&S theme and Gwyn's theme sound like) is because of the leitmotifs.

Let me give you one of my favorite examples: Heartache and ASGORE. They're essentially the same song remixed to fit the situation, but it makes perfect sense to use these tracks in this manner. The first version is more barebones and melancholy, befitting the exiled queen who really doesn't want to hurt you (and if you're playing pacifist, you don't want to hurt her either, making it even more fitting). ASGORE, though? It's both more intense - suiting a battle to the death with the most powerful* monster in the underground - and (to me at least) royal sounding, which works because he's the reigning king.

...Track 71, Undertale, is still the best track though. I really like how that scene plays out, and I've been thinking about something. Near the end of the 'encounters', the monsters ask Frisk 'You're going to be free soon. Aren't you happy?' This is interesting to me because in the true pacifist ending, Asriel flat out tells you that all the monsters love Frisk... so when they're asking Frisk that, do they believe s/he is going to go with them to the surface world when another human arrives for Asgore to kill (keep in mind, that only Sans, Undyne, Alphys, Mettaton, Toriel, Flowey, and Asgore seem to know what humans look like; Papyrus and Monster Kid are completely clueless, as are all the shopkeepers except I think maybe Gerson? Therefore it's reasonable to assume the majority of monsters you encounter don't actually realize you're human either), or do they believe that s/he is going to willingly sacrifice themselves to Asgore to free the monsters?

[miauw62]

The secrets you can get via trickery also look a lot like those spooky urban legends.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

gaster was his sled

[Leafsnail]

Fox's previous work on Homestuck also contains a lot of leitmotifs/musical callbacks.

[SeriousConcentrate]

While I don't doubt it, I stopped following Homestuck about the time the previous generation (Dirk's crew IIRC) was introduced and I haven't listened to any of the soundtracks outside of a few flashes early on, so I wouldn't know. Although speaking of his work on Homestuck, I am a little disappointed that Sans's theme is Megalovania. It's a good track and all, but I was a bit... sort of... when I learned it had been used before.

[Leafsnail]

Megalovania was in his Earthbound hack as well, I guess it's just a recurring theme for him in general.  I think the Undertale one is significantly improved.

[Cthulhu]

I managed to follow it through the troll arc to where the other people came back, I stopped somewhere around when Gamzee was killing everybody, at that point I just couldn't be assed anymore.

I thought it was best when it was funny, in the first couple chapters.  After that who even knew what the fuck was going on anymore.

Is Megalovania from homestuck?

Anybody who thinks leitmotifs are lazy is pretty dumb, though. 

[DoomOnion]

It's not just homestruck, I think the motif is sort of Toby's signature at this point. It'll probably pop up again in his future games.

[miauw62]

Megalovania is originally from an Earthbound romhack Toby made, iirc.

[Leafsnail]

It's in S: Wake and one of the interactive game segments I think.

e: Megalovania vs Vriska's theme would be a good example of musical callbacks

[Egan_BW]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think it's a little funny that Megalovania is San's track, because that means that Sans is so lazy, he just took a song from another game.

[Leafsnail]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It may actually not be Sans' theme - it's not based on his normal theme in any way like other boss themes are.  The Undertale OST actually includes a boss theme based on his theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4VNZdsjveE
There's some speculation that it's actually the theme for you, the player, since you are the actual boss for genocide

[miauw62]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Makes me sad that Sans' "real" theme isn't in the game, because it sounds baller. But way too upbeat for Genocide.

[Egan_BW]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It may actually not be Sans' theme - it's not based on his normal theme in any way like other boss themes are.  The Undertale OST actually includes a boss theme based on his theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4VNZdsjveE
There's some speculation that it's actually the theme for you, the player, since you are the actual boss for genocide

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I know (and The Song That Might Play When You Fight Sans is real good), I just think my theory is funny.