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[Mesa]

This game has been in development for longer than I can remember(like, '08 or '09)

Saying this on this particular forum is not the smartest of ideas...

[nenjin]

what is a more "true to the spirit" use of kickstarter, raising funds for projects that will later cost money, or projects that will be free of charge? for some unexplained reason i tend to go with the latter.

Yeah, I'd be inclined to say the latter. On the other hand, if that's how most people viewed Kickstarters, NONE of these professional dev houses would have a) bothered or b) succeeded to the degree that they have. Profit motivates people to do stuff. Good will and warm fuzzies only get you so far. The promise of profit allows you to get professionals, who will do their best work. That's what makes these projects viral, the prospect of unfettered professionals doing what they do best. While I'm sure the same thing could happen with a product that will eventually be offered for free (and might even surpass these "for profit" projects occasionally), I think we'd have way, way fewer actual games on Kickstarter, were that the case.

Using funding to hire developers is very common for OSS projects outside of games. OSS has never meant that funding or professional development cannot be involved, it merely covers the rights of a projects' end users. Indeed, combining professional development with end-user contributions has proven to be WILDLY effective in OSS.

Fair enough. I'd only argue that games tend to be the personal creations of those that made then, versus more generic software. There's also that feel-good aspect of someone making a great game and making it open source specifically because they don't want it be about the money.

[PrimusRibbus]

what is a more "true to the spirit" use of kickstarter, raising funds for projects that will later cost money, or projects that will be free of charge? for some unexplained reason i tend to go with the latter.

Yeah, I'd be inclined to say the latter. On the other hand, if that's how most people viewed Kickstarters, NONE of these professional dev houses would have a) bothered or b) succeeded to the degree that they have. Profit motivates people to do stuff. Good will and warm fuzzies only get you so far. The promise of profit allows you to get professionals, who will do their best work. That's what makes these projects viral, the prospect of unfettered professionals doing what they do best. While I'm sure the same thing could happen with a product that will eventually be offered for free (and might even surpass these "for profit" projects occasionally), I think we'd have way, way fewer actual games on Kickstarter, were that the case.

The shareholders of a commercial game gain profit in the form of money. The shareholders of an OSS game, the end users, gain profit in the form of the game that they want. The game developers, whether commercial or OSS, gain profit because they are being paid to develop a game.

Video games in general are not an industry you get into hoping to get rich. If your #1 motivation as a software developer is money, it's better to look for jobs working on enterprise software, or government-funded software.

[nenjin]

Video games in general are not an industry you get into hoping to get rich. If your #1 motivation as a software developer is money, it's better to look for jobs working on enterprise software, or government-funded software.

Except that Kickstarter has the flavor almost of a lottery, where your game is the slot machine. Hit the right combination of features, presentation, IP, and BAM! run away success. Minecraft in one month. That's the headline everyone wants anyways, right?

It's why we're seeing more and more people who can already finish and release a game without funding creating Kickstarter projects. I'm not trying to diminish the campaigns people have run and all the effort, money and time it took to make them happen and maintain them, at all. But they are going through all that effort on the promise of a return. They're gambling on the promise of becoming a viral hit and hitting the jackpot.

So yeah. I'd argue when it comes to Kickstarter, it is a place where people are looking to get rich, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it is an aspect of most Kickstarter projects that should be kept in mind. The people that choose to not try to crowd source the game are the ones who have bigger claim to doing what they do for the love of it (or perhaps being able to.)

If it isn't obvious, my take on Kickstarter has changed over the last year. When you've had so many projects send you emails overflowing with "this couldn't have happened without YOU!", familiarity breeds contempt. And it also has made me start thinking a lot more about the honest motivations of Kickstarter projects. I even know people in my daily life that are planning to go to Kickstarter with their projects, and it very much has the feeling of gambling on stardom, a modern version of going to Hollywood to either end up famous or broke.

Here is my RL example. People that work for a software company, that is entrepreneurial in its outlook, who are willing to let employees spend some time putting together a game. They have the luxury of time and resources, and can judge when they want to launch on Kickstarter. And with the (relatively modest) registration and legal fees covered, everything that comes out of Kickstarter becomes the basis for the game's warchest.

To me, Kickstarter has become less a "feel good happy yay!" way of seeing cool games happen, and more of a profit engine which generates games, some of which have heart-warming stories, but all of which act as though their story is heart warming.

[Bdthemag]

Another question, what about the open source license of the game? If it gets completed will it be released as a full game? Will it cost money? Do you plan on changing the license any time in the future? What if someone else picks up development and makes a different version? What if you don't complete your goal?

Also, what is the username of the main developer on the forums? You're mentioning his real name, but I'm more curious as to if they frequent this forum or not.

[Azated]

It seems a little odd that you need a kickstarter for an open source roguelike. I was under the impression that Cataclysm was chugging along quite happily after whales turned the project over to the public.

I'm not sure if I should donate some goblinite and encourage this brilliant game toward the future, or step back a little and just watch. There's really no need for 3 months of solid work; roguelikes have no deadline, so there's no need to hunker down and get some sweet sweet coding done. Is it absolutely necessary to churn out a bunch of code in a short amount of time for quite a bit of money when a little patience will do the same thing for free?

[werty892]

It seems a little odd that you need a kickstarter for an open source roguelike. I was under the impression that Cataclysm was chugging along quite happily after whales turned the project over to the public.

I'm not sure if I should donate some goblinite and encourage this brilliant game toward the future, or step back a little and just watch. There's really no need for 3 months of solid work; roguelikes have no deadline, so there's no need to hunker down and get some sweet sweet coding done. Is it absolutely necessary to churn out a bunch of code in a short amount of time for quite a bit of money when a little patience will do the same thing for free?

The vibe I seem to be getting is that what the dev is adding is more of a side goal. The problem with it being open source is that most people who contribute add features, and don't do the annoying things like fix bugs. Thats why there are getting a guy to work on it full time, so they have someone who makes sure all the code fits together and all the bugs are fixed.

[Azated]

It seems a little odd that you need a kickstarter for an open source roguelike. I was under the impression that Cataclysm was chugging along quite happily after whales turned the project over to the public.

I'm not sure if I should donate some goblinite and encourage this brilliant game toward the future, or step back a little and just watch. There's really no need for 3 months of solid work; roguelikes have no deadline, so there's no need to hunker down and get some sweet sweet coding done. Is it absolutely necessary to churn out a bunch of code in a short amount of time for quite a bit of money when a little patience will do the same thing for free?

The vibe I seem to be getting is that what the dev is adding is more of a side goal. The problem with it being open source is that most people who contribute add features, and don't do the annoying things like fix bugs. Thats why there are getting a guy to work on it full time, so they have someone who makes sure all the code fits together and all the bugs are fixed.

Ah, that makes a bit more sense to me. He's essentially going to be a paid, dedicated bugfixer while everyone else adds new content, correct?

[GlyphGryph]

Nenjin: At least for cataclysm, it's definitely not about the money - it's about trying to do what's best for the game. the Kickstarter serves a multi-purpose goal - it spreads the word and gets people invested, meaning people are more likely to become active contributors. It allows people to give back to the game who want to but don't have technical skills. And it allows someone working on the game, in this case Soron, to not have to worry about making rent while he works on the game full time.

Another question, what about the open source license of the game? If it gets completed will it be released as a full game? Will it cost money? Do you plan on changing the license any time in the future? What if someone else picks up development and makes a different version? What if you don't complete your goal?

It's released now. There is a regular build that includes every batch of code changes and a stable version released every month with all the new features and hopefully fewer bugs. It will not cost money - it will continue to be free. There are no plans to change the licensing. If someone picks up development and makes a different version, that's cool - I wish them luck. Both our versions could probably pick good pieces from the other, and we'd probably end up with a better game for it.

Also, what is the username of the main developer on the forums? You're mentioning his real name, but I'm more curious as to if they frequent this forum or not.

The active developers list changes pretty regularly, but the two folks who've been with the game consistently since its relaunch have been myself and kevingranade. Neither of us are in a position to work full time on Cataclysm, and it's unlikely either of us will be seeing a dime of the money because quite frankly we don't need it, and it wouldn't do the game any good for it to go to us since we'll continue working on the game when we can anyway - the purpose of the money is to allow someone to work on the game full time, and neither of us can do that. Ethan, also known as Soron, has been around for quite a while as well and has done a lot, and is in a place in his life where he can dedicate up to a year to this for a pretty small amount of money. One of our backups, GalenEvil, is a member here, however, as am I (obviously).

It seems a little odd that you need a kickstarter for an open source roguelike. I was under the impression that Cataclysm was chugging along quite happily after whales turned the project over to the public.

It was actually dead (or close to it) for quite a while - I've been working since January to bring it back to life, and with the irreplaceable help of several other people, I've succeeded. But I want to see the game be the best it can be (that's all I've ever really wanted, it's why I started the branch and the new website and the new forums and did all that work pulling a bunch of people together to get on board), and I think this is the best way to do that.

And no, it's not absolutely necessary - the game will continue improving either way, hopefully! But I think the game will be better for it. We'll have someone we can assign the big, hard, unpleasant and complex tasks that really need to be done, and need to be done quickly enough that the new code being constantly submitted doesn't invalidate them. For some of the things we have planned, it would take quite a while doing it on the side to complete things, and a lot of that time would be spent just keeping it up to date. Plowing 50 or 60 hours into working on it over the course of a single week makes that SO much easier you wouldn't even believe.

[Lectorog]

Is it absolutely necessary to churn out a bunch of code in a short amount of time for quite a bit of money when a little patience will do the same thing for free?

You could say this for any game. Given enough time, a single person could create any game. Money is a shortcut, roughly tripling development times.

How dare you people call this vaporware and 7000$ unreachable? This game has been in development for longer than I can remember(like, '08 or '09) and it's been active all that time. It is so popular when the original developer quit it got picked up by fans and is now maintained by their lately grown group. This is not a scam.

Besides, they raised 1,230$ in the first day.

Do you understand how worthless this comment is, or would you like someone to explain it to you?

Dude. You're well on your way to getting reported by someone.

2 3dgy 4 u
In an effort toward high productivity, let the dissection begin.

How dare you people

Generalization in accusational tone, always a nice way to start.

This game has been in development for longer than I can remember(like, '08 or '09) and it's been active all that time.

As previously pointed out, the game this forum was created around has been in development for significantly longer. 4 years is a pretty middle-range time for original game development.
Additionally, Cataclysm development has always been slow because it's never been a full-time project.

It is so popular when the original developer quit it got picked up by fans and is now maintained by their lately grown group.

This isn't popularity, it's just people picking up a dead project. The reason it doesn't happen often is because games with positive fanbases don't often cease development.

This is not a scam.

The debate isn't over the validity of the Kickstarter project, but its usefulness.

Besides, they raised 1,230$ in the first day.

Kickstarter projects generally raise most of their money within the first few days. It's really hard to judge how well a project will go based on the first day's funding.

In addition to all of that, nothing was said that was neither presented already in the thread nor common knowledge, and your grammar was a bit awkward on the mind.
So, in terms of contribution, I give the post 1.5/10, making it worth bringing to the poster's attention.

[Scoops Novel]

Nice Kickstarter! Shameless profiteering from the results whatever happens i eagerly await . What are the plans for when the money burns through, and you need another siege on the bugs?

[Azated]

Nice Kickstarter! Shameless profiteering from the results whatever happens i eagerly await . What are the plans for when the money burns through, and you need another siege on the bugs?

I hear the human kidney sells for quite a bit these days. Care to donate to the cause?

[nenjin]

NeNjin: At least for cataclysm, it's definitely not about the money - it's about trying to do what's best for the game. the Kickstarter serves a multi-purpose goal - it spreads the word and gets people invested, meaning people are more likely to become active contributors. It allows people to give back to the game who want to but don't have technical skills. And it allows someone working on the game, in this case Soron, to not have to worry about making rent while he works on the game full time.

Is cool. Money does motivate people to work harder, both to meet their obligations and because they feel comfortable with a full stomach. I've been waiting for Cataclysm to get some graphics, so I may end up backing at some point. Chances are, it won't need my help.

[tootboot]

I don't see what's strange or hard to understand about the benefits of having a full time developer for 3 months, I was backer #2.  DF wouldn't be nearly as far along as it is if Toady wasn't working on it full time.  Had the monthly donations not reached the point where he could live off of them, he eventually would have burned through his savings and been forced to get a dayjob.

People who have worked with the code making personal mods and such on another forum have said Whales' code was a mess so it could probably do with some refactoring.  That's something that people probably wouldn't wouldn't want to do as a hobby but a full-time developer might take a look at.

[GlyphGryph]

Sorry for the misspelling Nenjin.

Anyway, we finished our first day with over $2,300! Thanks everyone who contributed. Hopefully we can hit not just the main goal but some of the Kickstarters - I really want to be able to print out these gorgeous posters I've commissioned!